PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[iheartphilly]

I get the excitement for the arena on Market East. Will it benefit the surrounding communities, I don't think anyone can say for certain. Will it spur other businesses or will competition eliminate them, no on can say for sure. Also, do the local infrastructure support the 16-18k people attending game nights in a narrow time frame. Our city streets are a tight and on a small grid. How may people will come in by car? I bet new garages will be built. Will the city or 76 keep the area clean. What about all the food services and other delivery trucks coming and going-how will that affect other things happening in the area. What about concurrent events? Has anybody model this, traffic studies, etc. There will certainly be unintended consequences but that's all being brushed aside. Comparing it to a skyscraper built over 20yrs ago is not a good comparison. The city is more built out now then it was. Different dynamic. More people, more cars, more businesses. There will be a quality of life issues and maybe it's positive for the folks that want to see a game in this area, maybe it will be a turnoff. But it also will be negative QOL for people living in the area with all the congestion. I am for an arena in the city but question this location.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

I hope these fare gates will be reinforced because those renders don't seem promising. I also hope we have officers standing the fare gate so people don't break them.

I was wondering that too. I have to imagine they can’t be pried open or run through. I think it’s more about making it much more difficult to skip the fare. A lot of crime prevention is just making more cost prohibitive for criminals. Time will tell.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

I get the excitement for the arena on Market East. Will it benefit the surrounding communities, I don't think anyone can say for certain. Will it spur other businesses or will competition eliminate them, no on can say for sure. Also, do the local infrastructure support the 16-18k people attending game nights in a narrow time frame. Our city streets are a tight and on a small grid. How may people will come in by car? I bet new garages will be built. Will the city or 76 keep the area clean. What about all the food services and other delivery trucks coming and going-how will that affect other things happening in the area. What about concurrent events? Has anybody model this, traffic studies, etc. There will certainly be unintended consequences but that's all being brushed aside. Comparing it to a skyscraper built over 20yrs ago is not a good comparison. The city is more built out now then it was. Different dynamic. More people, more cars, more businesses. There will be a quality of life issues and maybe it's positive for the folks that want to see a game in this area, maybe it will be a turnoff. But it also will be negative QOL for people living in the area with all the congestion. I am for an arena in the city but question this location.

What Congestion?

[IMG]DSC04214 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04213 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04212 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04211 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04210 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04207 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04204 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]DSC04201 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

This is what Market St looks like between 8-9 from Sunday to Thursday, DEAD.

Also why wouldn't the Sixers either deploy their own cleaning crews or work with CCD to beef up the current operations? you guys are acting like you don't know how development works.

When a large development happens most of the time all groups in the area come together to work together pooling resources together to make the effort better.

[iheartphilly]

^
lol, Sixers don't just play on Sunday nights. And not just game night, also talking about congestion during the day but other events and businesses that have to be conducted in preparations and the day-to-day business operations of running an arena business.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
lol, Sixers don't just play on Sunday nights. And not just game night, also talking about congestion during the day but other events and businesses that have to be conducted in preparations and the day-to-day business operations of running an arena business.

Right, and even during the day "event, and business operations" still won't cause congestion on Market St, its a weak point to use traffic as an excuse, it always has been.

There's traffic on S Penn Square & 15th St everyday, the city still moves and operates like normal.

In fact when I see convention events let out I see 80% of people walking, and they either walk to a Restaurant, the Subway, or Go home.

It's good business for the city, and the streets are live and they aren't destroyed.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

What Congestion?

Wow thank you for documenting this. I've been saying this since the 76ers arena was announced. This area is DEAD. The arena will activate at the exact times we need which is nighttime, especially winter weeknights when it's mostly desolate besides junkies and a couple of people trying to get in and out of Heirloom. Imagine 20,000 people out and about before the game and after the game, going to restaurants, taking the subway and taking the regional rail. Crowds would disperse walking home, El stops at 13th, 11th and 8th, Patco at 8th, Broad-Ridge spur, BSL at city hall and every single regional rail line at Jefferson. Foot traffic is always a good thing. It's the reason NYC always feels safer even in bad neighborhoods because there are people everywhere.

If you told me we could get a Comcast Innovation Tower or Laurel high rise condo tower here, of course I'd prefer that over an arena. But that is not planned and will not happen. It is probably the least desirable area of Center City besides the area right along Vine St. between Broad and 8th.

[iheartphilly]

Nah, I don't think anyone knows that for sure but I bet there will be traffic congestion. There's no 100% assurance everyone will take mass transit or walk (and doable if within walking distance). People from around the region come to see these games. I think if you're mind is set, you will not convince yourself otherwise But, I tend not to underestimate something like this. Again, it is not an office or residential office being built.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

I was wondering that too. I have to imagine they can’t be pried open or run through. I think it’s more about making it much more difficult to skip the fare. A lot of crime prevention is just making more cost prohibitive for criminals. Time will tell.

If they are anything like the ones in Europe, then they will certainly withstand any acts of vandalism or attempted damage.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

If you told me we could get a Comcast Innovation Tower or Laurel high rise condo tower here, of course I'd prefer that over an arena. But that is not planned and will not happen. It is probably the least desirable area of Center City besides the area right along Vine St. between Broad and 8th.

Agreed. I mean the East Market development (Ludlow etc) is pretty cool and it improved that particular block, but it’s not anywhere close to being a game changer.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Nah, I don't think anyone knows that for sure but I bet there will be traffic congestion. There's no 100% assurance everyone will take mass transit or walk (and doable if within walking distance). People from around the region come to see these games. I think if you're mind is set, you will not convince yourself otherwise But, I tend not to underestimate something like this. Again, it is not an office or residential office being built.

At this point I think all of the suburbanites who'd rather have the Sixers in South Philly should start their own forum called big building boners for suburbanites.

I'm an urbanist first, skyscraper enthusiast second.

Full stop the economic benefits from having the Sixers in Center City versus a parking lot in South Philly are indisputable. Will it be as great as boosters say? I don't know. I don't care. Only a neanderthal would claim that it would have zero economic impact in Center City.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

At this point I think all of the suburbanites who'd rather have the Sixers in South Philly should start their own forum called big building boners for suburbanites.

I'm an urbanist first, skyscraper enthusiast second.

Full stop the economic benefits from having the Sixers in Center City versus a parking lot in South Philly are indisputable. Will it be as great as boosters say? I don't know. I don't care. Only a neanderthal would claim that it would have zero economic impact in Center City.

A business doesn't discriminate surburbanites' money when they come into the city and spend, in fact they are happy to take their money. And, nobody is saying there will be no economic impact from an arena.

But we can all just believe in rainbows and unicorns because the arena is gonna save the area and city and have zero effects on the people living and working in the area and everyone will take mass transit to these game and concerts and whatnot and there will be no net-negative effect of 20k people coming and going after a game. I wish there was more of that reality.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

A business doesn't discriminate surburbanites' money when they come into the city and spend, in fact they are happy to take their money. And, nobody is saying there will be no economic impact from an arena.

But we can all just believe in rainbows and unicorns because the arena is gonna save the area and city and have zero effects on the people living and working in the area and everyone will take mass transit to these game and concerts and whatnot and there will be no net-negative effect of 20k people coming and going after a game. I wish there was more of that reality.

Please there were 20K people around Market St in 1950.

The city is built up to handle 2.5 Million. Market St will be fine & the City will be fine.

[iheartphilly]

oh ok. You know before Covid and when septa went on strike and everyone was driving to get to their appointments, errands, and work within and outside of the city, I remember that was a total nightmare. It was a hot mess. But if you guys says its okay then its okay. I'll still enjoy the city.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

oh ok. You know before Covid and when septa went on strike and everyone was driving to get to their appointments and work within and outside of the city, I remember that was a total nightmare. It was a hot mess. But if you guys says its okay then its okay. I'll still enjoy the city.

I think a SEPTA strike would have an impact regardless of ridership volume.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

oh ok. You know before Covid and when septa went on strike and everyone was driving to get to their appointments, errands, and work within and outside of the city, I remember that was a total nightmare. It was a hot mess. But if you guys says its okay then its okay. I'll still enjoy the city.

LMAO NOW SEPTA WENT ON STRIKE??

Cmon IHeart you are better then this, just accept that the project is good & is gonna be great for the city period.

We all still love you

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Its funny- no one has really asked the question- is this the best way to spend $1.3B? That money could go a long way for a different kind of market street development that included apts and hotels and entertainment. a $1.3b box that will be dead during the day may not be best way to activate market street.

What else are the Sixers going to spend 1.3B on? Charity?

[Philly Fan]

Philadelphia seeks a restaurant operator again for LOVE Park’s ‘flying saucer’ building

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

LMAO NOW SEPTA WENT ON STRIKE??

Cmon IHeart you are better then this, just accept that the project is good & is gonna be great for the city period.

We all still love you

Love you guys back, lol. I'm not oppose to an arena in this city but is this the best or right location to handle an arena. I raised valid/reasonable concerns but no one can really addressed them.

And, just to interpret for you, in reference to your statement that the city's infrastructure could handle 2.5 million people. The city streets couldn't handle all the vehicles when Septa went on strike and was basically in a gridlock and that was no where near your number. Imagine just 10% of additional vehicles from your hypothetical population of 2.5 million. I guess we will see where the tipping point is in the project 8 years from now if this project gets built.

Good luck to the folks around that area.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Love you guys back, lol. I'm not oppose to an arena in this city but is this the best or right location to handle an arena. I raised valid/reasonable concerns but no one can really addressed them.

And, just to interpret for you, in reference to your statement that the city's infrastructure could handle 2.5 million people. The city streets couldn't handle all the vehicles when Septa went on strike and was basically in a gridlock and that was no where near your number. Imagine just 10% of additional vehicles from your hypothetical population of 2.5 million. I guess we will see where the tipping point is in the project 8 years from now if this project gets built.

Good luck to the folks around that area.

I'm sorry... Your argument against the arena is that if septa goes on strike traffic will be bad? Yea, I mean regardless of whether or not the arena is built, traffic will be bad during a septa strike.

Why in the world would we plan our city based on how things will operate during a transit strike, a condition that affects the city for maybe a week every 10 years or so. It would be just as weird to say, "How can we build an arena downtown? Imagine how chaotic it will be when there is a massive blizzard in Philly and theres a sixers game that night."

Again, I lean towards the arena being better than the status quo. Tony tone, your images of the area at night are truly dispiriting and make it hard to say no to a privately funded development of this scale. But that's not to say I don't see the negatives. The negative impact to Market East Station that Inga wrote about certainly did not sound great. And it would be terrible of the arena spurred the development of more parking in the area.

But as you weigh pros and cons, I don't really think we have to spend time talking about what will happen if theres a septa strike.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by justremember

Which can’t be done by people who refuse to even consider it.

Or people that don't consider the view point of people that work and live there already.

There is no arena that is such a tight location.
there's a reason for that.
There's a reason they are ALL built along a highway.
It just seems a suburban wet dream to me.
For me, it comes down to how they handle the ground floor.
Adding more loading docks to an area that has a lot of them is not necessarily improving the area, IMHO

Not that it can't be done
but there will be complications.
I just don't feel the powers that be are really that committed.