Trans Canada Highway Twinning: Segments U/C

[vid]

The scariest experience I've had on the highways up here is being followed very closely by a transport at night. The headlights reflect off the windshield and you can't see anything, but you can't stop or he'll run you over. When you throw in that the truck was a piece of shit, it makes for one hell of a ride. We drove like that for about 15 kilometres before he backed off.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

There are many highways in North America with that narrow median (concrete barrier) as well, and certainly a good chunk of Highway 17 in northern Ontario would be that way due to geometrics anyway. As for wide shoulders, they definitely need to be there for safety purposes, especially considering bicycles would need to be accomodated as well for much of the route (there are no alternate routes in many areas).

Those rock cuts on the Highway 400 photo are NOTHING compared to some that would be conquered on the north shore of Lake Superior. Some sections may only support a 100 km/h design speed (i.e. widening the existing alignment), as opposed to a 120 km/h design speed elsewhere. Such is especially the case in Lake Superior Provincial Park.

Yes we have highways with a narrow median and a barrier, but rarely as narrow as they routinely do in Europe. Take a look at that Italian highway again - it pretty much goes from pavement to barrier with very little in between. Here (in Ontario at least) there's usually a full lane width between the left lane and the barrier. Plus the ditches and right of way on either side of the highway is usually a lot wider here. I don't think that point matters a lot though, the modern standard is for a wide grass or treed median wherever possible.

Re: the rock cuts, the point is that they're way bigger than they need to be. If they did away with the huge median they could make that rock cut half the width (give or take). With those savings you could build a lot more highway...or transit.

Originally Posted by Smevo

I've seen countless examples of impatient/illegal/dangerous passing driving on any two-lane highway with either climbing lanes or alternating passing lanes, including a truck with an empty wide-load trailer through Northern Ontario passing everyone on double yellows, uphill, and around curves. The one bonus to that European picture posted is the physical barrier in the centre-line and the lack of shoulders, although the lack of shoulders produces it's own dangers and complications. I didn't find Northern Ontario that dangerous, but then again, I only drove it the one time so that's hardly a good indication of real conditions.

That was a reply to a comment about people passing trucks on shoulders. That I've never seen unless someone's stopped waiting to turn left. What you're describing is different.

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The highway to Whistler was rebuilt the same way, with minimal shoulders. I think wide shoulders are a very North American thing, we don't really need them.

Its a safety issue. While some of the absurdly large shoulders that could be a highway onto themselves can get out of hand, those are the ones I'm sure you're referencing that we've all seen, having a little more clearance than the photo provided would be a good idea if anything just for snow removal purposes and the extra safety it provides. Not mega huge shoulders, just ones large enough to allow for a safe pull over in case of emergency and for the snow in winter.

[Dr Nevergold]

A matter of fact, I took a good video driving down the 190 through Buffalo today with my new HD cell phone, luckily its got 5 GB of storage so I was able to film plenty time with lots of space left.

The shoulders on the 190 are actually what I think are appropriate for rural highways in this format. If you want to see the HD version feel free to view the Youtube version of this drive and choose 720p then blow it up to full screen. Take a keen look at the shoulder on the left, its barely big enough to fit a car entirely on but is big enough to pull a car over and have safe clearance on the right for people to pass.

• Video Link

[vid]

The province announced about $200,000,000 in funding for the four-laning and twinning of about 33kms of highway between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, but I can't find an online version of this story. It was on the news though.

[Dr Nevergold]

The province may be cash strapped because of the recession, but its a good idea to keep these transportation projects going forward. It would be good to have a highway completed from Barrie to Thunder Bay with the format seen earlier or 4 lane where possible. But I really love the new format displayed here and the one they used on the Sea to Sky.

The only thing I agree with is de-funding that awful idea for converting Sheppard Subway to LRT for the rest of the route if they can funnel the rest of the cash for TC into Eglinton and get it done... But that's another discussion.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by vid

The province announced about $200,000,000 in funding for the four-laning and twinning of about 33kms of highway between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, but I can't find an online version of this story. It was on the news though.

Here you go vid:

http://news.ontario.ca/mndmf/en/2010...n-ontario.html

[vid]

I made a map showing the projects (since I had no idea where Red Rock Road 9 was and needed to visualize it. ).

Red is existing twinned highway, orange is projects beginning in 2011, yellow is projects beginning 2012, and purple is nearby projects of interest.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...3,1.755066&z=9

And if you don't know about the bicycling layer (only works south of 49, sorry Western Canada) this is the perfect opportunity for you to get acquainted.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by vid

I made a map showing the projects (since I had no idea where Red Rock Road 9 was and needed to visualize it. ).

Red is existing twinned highway, orange is projects beginning in 2011, yellow is projects beginning 2012, and purple is nearby projects of interest.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...3,1.755066&z=9

And if you don't know about the bicycling layer (only works south of 49, sorry Western Canada) this is the perfect opportunity for you to get acquainted.

Will the new Nipigon highway be an upgrade of the existing route, or a bypass of the community? Since the highway doesn't go right into the centre of town, using the existing route seems doable, although it would require expropriation and intersection consolidation and a short bypass may be necessary from 585 to First Street. Also it reduces the costs as it would only require a new 2-lane bridge over the Nipigon River as opposed to two new bridges or a new 4-lane bridge. (If it comes time to upgrade to a full freeway, the best place for an interchange would be at First Street, with perhaps a second interchange south of 585.)

I would immediately build an interchange (probably a trumpet with the loop ramp for the lightly-used WB 11 to SB 17 movement) at the 11/17 Nipigon junction, since there is a high volume of trucks using that intersection. Such would likely require a realignment to avoid the railway tracks.

In addition, all twinned sections east of Balsam Street should have the speed limit increased to 100 km/h. (The TBE with its traffic lights should remain 90)

[vid]

As far as I can tell, they're just expanding the right of way as it exists. There is a study into extending the twinned highway east of McKenzie Station and extending the Shabaqua Highway to north of Kakabeka and both of those involve re-routing, but neither will begin construction for several years. (The Shabaqua highway has a timeline of "around 2030 sometime".)

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by vid

As far as I can tell, they're just expanding the right of way as it exists. There is a study into extending the twinned highway east of McKenzie Station and extending the Shabaqua Highway to north of Kakabeka and both of those involve re-routing, but neither will begin construction for several years. (The Shabaqua highway has a timeline of "around 2030 sometime".)

That timeline should seriously be moved up, as I think it should be constructed as far as Shabaqua Corners before 2020 as well - particularly west of 102 where no alternate route exists. Remaining sections from Nipigon to Thunder Bay should be prioritized as those with NO alternate at all (i.e. no back roads parallel) should also be constructed before 2020 and the rest early in the next decade.

[shreddog]

Wrt to the press release, it missed some key info, namely that 4 laning will be done all the way to Birch Beach road, not just the 527. The bridge work over MacKenzie has already started as has the surveying for how it will integrate to the hwy just west of BB road.

Also, for the Nipigon section, it's expansion in the current ROW, the bridge work is only for a second 2 laner.

Finally, unfortunately I would guess that this will be it for about the next 20+ years. I was with some MTO people in T Bay a couple of weeks ago and the general consensus was that after this, it's mtce for the next couple decades. Sigh.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Its a safety issue. While some of the absurdly large shoulders that could be a highway onto themselves can get out of hand, those are the ones I'm sure you're referencing that we've all seen, having a little more clearance than the photo provided would be a good idea if anything just for snow removal purposes and the extra safety it provides. Not mega huge shoulders, just ones large enough to allow for a safe pull over in case of emergency and for the snow in winter.

Hey now that road with no shoulders we're talking about is in northern Sweden - they have to remove snow too! Somehow they manage, at higher speeds no less.

Originally Posted by Brandon716

A matter of fact, I took a good video driving down the 190 through Buffalo today with my new HD cell phone, luckily its got 5 GB of storage so I was able to film plenty time with lots of space left.

The shoulders on the 190 are actually what I think are appropriate for rural highways in this format. If you want to see the HD version feel free to view the Youtube version of this drive and choose 720p then blow it up to full screen. Take a keen look at the shoulder on the left, its barely big enough to fit a car entirely on but is big enough to pull a car over and have safe clearance on the right for people to pass.

• Video Link

On a freeway you want room to pull over on the right, but not the left. If anything that makes it less safe - you don't want people pulling over right next to the fastest lane of traffic. Most freeways, even in North America, are designed to discourage you from pulling over on the left. Even if your car suddenly breaks down there's no reason that you couldn't get to the right.

[Dr Nevergold]

^If you want to make the case for no shoulders on the left, please present the data that proves its safer, results in fewer accidents, and is easier for snow removal. I don't see how you could make the argument its safer, but again that's just the impression I get from intuition. Northern Sweden is far colder than even northern Ontario where the TCH runs through, I actually have a co-worker who is from northern Sweden who said the Buffalo-Toronto region feels tropical. LOL So yes, I agree they handle the snow with that kind of highway, but still... It doesn't leave much room for removal. BTW, he grew up in a small fishing village on the northeast coast, so he grew up right by the E4 demonstrated here, I will have to ask him how snow removal goes.

I'm not one for big mega-highways being built in rural landscapes, but a tiny shoulder like the one on the video is sufficient. BTW, I should have pointed out the small shoulder begins after 3:05 in the video I took on the 190. That seems like a more appropriate sized shoulder for a rural Canadian highway that would follow the 3 lane alternating system demonstrated in the Swedish highway as opposed to virtually no shoulder. The no shoulder design isn't that well thought out, although I think the 3 lane alternating idea would be a good TCH upgrade concept.

BTW, what we are discussing are fine details. I'd be fine with creating a shoulder free highway that alternates that is identical to the Swedish concept if nothing else could be done, but I think the TCH needs a spruce up and would support a national project to upgrade it.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

... Northern Sweden is far colder than even northern Ontario where the TCH runs through, I actually have a co-worker who is from northern Sweden who said the Buffalo-Toronto region feels tropical. LOL So yes, I agree they handle the snow with that kind of highway, but still... It doesn't leave much room for removal. BTW, he grew up in a small fishing village on the northeast coast, so he grew up right by the E4 demonstrated here, I will have to ask him how snow removal goes. ...

Not to nitpick, but your statement is wrong: temperatures in Northern Ontario (where the TCH runs through) are actually colder than Northern Sweden.

When comparing the temps of Kapuskasing and Kiruna (northernmost town in Sweden @ 145 Kms north of the Arctic circle) you see that Kap has average lows colder than Kiruna throughout most of the winter. Remember, Buffalo-Toronto also feels "tropical" to many places in Northern Ontario. Northern Ontario (Kap) also appears to get double the snow fall as Northen Sweden (Kiruna) though it would still be interesting to hear about their removal techniques as when I look at the roads around Kiruna, they too seem to have wide shoulders versus those on the E9.

Regarding left shoulder width and safety, all I can say is that all the recently built controlled-access highways in Ontario all include wide left shoulders (416, 407, Red Earth Valley) so I can only assume that safe highway design in Onatrio mandates a wide left shoulder.

[vid]

Central/Northern Canada is only warmer in winter than Central Asia and the poles. Anywhere else in winter is warmer than Central/Northern Canada. Even many parts of Alaska are warmer than this place in winter, and summers in Thunder Bay feel tropical. 35° and 80% humidity does that. Pretty much no where in Sweden gets warmer than 25° in summer anyway, so it doesn't take much for a Scandinavian to feel tropical. Stockholm probably has cooler summers than Vancouver.

[waterloowarrior]

European motorway standards don't include left lane shoulders, they have a minimum 4.0 metre central reserve (preferably with barriers).
example (NL)
example 2 (NL)
example 3 (france)


and some Swedish winter driving
• Video Link

First Dutch 2+1 road
• Video Link

[waterloowarrior]

and more on highway standards, adding to what MisterF said

Here is the Norwegian 19 metre narrow motorway

22 metre normal motorway


source: ssc thread on 2+1 roadways
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=502483&page=7

Back in Ontario, Highway 69 widening has a 110 metre ROW and 30 metre medians....



source: http://www.highway-69.ca/downloads/5...ended_plan.pdf

[b31den]

HWY 1 on Morley flats (AB) was sprayed with that tar/gravel mix last summer to smooth out the channels caused by heavy trucks. That stuff equals FAIL. It actually causes your car to drift around a bit. I imagine it would be very dangerous in icy conditions.

The HWY 1 / HWY 22 interchange and truck stop area near cochrane needs to be rebuilt. Longer ramps, remove weave zones. The on/off ramps for the trucks are ridiculously short. They are usually only going 60km/h by the time they have to merge with 130km/h traffic.

There is also a commuter path being built in the TCH ROW from Canmore, past Banff to Bow Valley Parkway. This will be awesome for biking but I wish they could have built it alongside the railway tracks instead. In some spots the path is only a few metres from the highway, and I doubt they will be installing a barrier. Better than nothing I guess.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

European motorway standards don't include left lane shoulders, they have a minimum 4.0 metre central reserve (preferably with barriers).
example (NL)
example 2 (NL)
example 3 (france)

If you look at the Google Earth image on the French highway just west of the town of Millau on the autoroute, you can see the large and long shadow cast by the humongous Viaduc de Millau bridge. Pretty cool.