Manitoba Highways

[cllew]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The rail crossing at Main St can be closed and reroutes over to the rail crossing near #7. The Province had a study out for that a few years ago but cancelled it. The rail crossing should be combined with a farm access crossing under the highway there as well.

The dinky CEMR crossing at Wenzel should be closed. It serves only the oil plant and I think it serve(d) the paper mill in Pine Falls.

The Prairie Dog would be dealt with as part of #6.

Moving tank cars in and out of the East St. Paul Imperial Oil tank farm is big business for CEMR. A number of the tank cars go up north and a larger number of them go out as far as Thunder Bay.

They also have a big business providing B20 Summer Bio-Diesel to Imperial Oil by bringing rail tankers of regular Diesel from the East St. Paul tank farm and blending on site with raw bio-diesel that is brought in by rail via their CP interchange connection. Its all blended onsite in the tank cars and then either shipped back to East St. Paul tank farm for storage, or shipped out from the CEMR yard to the the smaller distribution terminals.

They also make money providing rail car storage on the line north of the tank farm up to the end of the line next to the hydro steam plant in East St. Paul

[Andy6]

What is it about a diamond interchange lets it cost only a fraction of what another interchange would cost? I would have thought the overpass would constitute the major part of the expense for any grade-separated crossing and that its cost would be fairly similar no matter what design was used. But people here seem to be claiming that a diamond costs well under half of what any other interchange would cost.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by cllew

Moving tank cars in and out of the East St. Paul Imperial Oil tank farm is big business for CEMR. A number of the tank cars go up north and a larger number of them go out as far as Thunder Bay.

They also have a big business providing B20 Summer Bio-Diesel to Imperial Oil by bringing rail tankers of regular Diesel from the East St. Paul tank farm and blending on site with raw bio-diesel that is brought in by rail via their CP interchange connection. Its all blended onsite in the tank cars and then either shipped back to East St. Paul tank farm for storage, or shipped out from the CEMR yard to the the smaller distribution terminals.

They also make money providing rail car storage on the line north of the tank farm up to the end of the line next to the hydro steam plant in East St. Paul

I don't doubt that at all. But CEMR is such a cheaply run operation from my experiences. and the track is barely used for anything else. To build an overpass seems like a big expense for that line. But its needed for freeway standards.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Andy6

What is it about a diamond interchange lets it cost only a fraction of what another interchange would cost? I would have thought the overpass would constitute the major part of the expense for any grade-separated crossing and that its cost would be fairly similar no matter what design was used. But people here seem to be claiming that a diamond costs well under half of what any other interchange would cost.

Really it depends what the scenario is.

A diamond at Gunn for example would be one of the cheapest interchanges to build. One two lane bridge. Could probably get the bridge itself built for around $10 million. Then the next most expensive thing is concrete pavement for the roads. So again a two lane road on the bridge alignment. Then single lane ramps to/from 101. Maybe there would be traffic signals which will add another million. So $20 million is probably about right.

If it was a 4 lane road, you double it basically. If it's a big interchange like 59n/101, it's 250 million with all the highway work they did.

Bridge length also makes it more pensive though. If we're planning for 6 lanes underneath, the girders are long and more expensive. So maybe Gunn is $25 million.

Maybe Biff has some estimates or cost from recent works. What did the roblin/100 reconstruction cost? That's got to be public information.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by cllew

Moving tank cars in and out of the East St. Paul Imperial Oil tank farm is big business for CEMR. A number of the tank cars go up north and a larger number of them go out as far as Thunder Bay.

They also have a big business providing B20 Summer Bio-Diesel to Imperial Oil by bringing rail tankers of regular Diesel from the East St. Paul tank farm and blending on site with raw bio-diesel that is brought in by rail via their CP interchange connection. Its all blended onsite in the tank cars and then either shipped back to East St. Paul tank farm for storage, or shipped out from the CEMR yard to the the smaller distribution terminals.

They also make money providing rail car storage on the line north of the tank farm up to the end of the line next to the hydro steam plant in East St. Paul

I just have to say that I am impressed by your extensive knowledge regarding the operations of various local businesses. I definitely learned something new here...

[bomberjet]

cllew is a local legend with his knowledge haha

The hydro steam plant in Selkirk is now closing as well. So really their only customer there is Esso and storing junk cars for CP. CEMR, which is owned by Cando, also do a lot of operations contracts for industrial clients and for the railways. They own locomotives, do maintenance, etc.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

cllew is a local legend with his knowledge haha

The hydro steam plant in Selkirk is now closing as well. So really their only customer there is Esso and storing junk cars for CP. CEMR, which is owned by Cando, also do a lot of operations contracts for industrial clients and for the railways. They own locomotives, do maintenance, etc.

Manitoba Hydro has not received coal in years. They converted the plant to natural gas in 2002.

The only use I could see for the line to the plant in East Selkirk besides storing unused rail cars is if and when Manitoba Hydro needs to move their old transformers out and new ones in. Unless one fails in service I think the lifespan of heavy duty transformers is about 50 years.

It can be a lot more efficient to move transformer's by rail as a high/wide shipment if a rail line is nearby, than try and truck it in where it may have to come in more pieces or take a longer route due to load restrictions.

[Dengler Avenue]

I wonder if these rail lines are frequently used, i.e. one trip a week or more. If yes, grade-separation’s needed right away.
Otherwise, in New Brunswick, TCH has 2 rail crossings and they don’t seem too problematic... yet. Ditto for the one on TCH (A20) through the heart of St Hyacinthe, Quebec.
I agree that it needs to be done eventually though.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Maybe Biff has some estimates or cost from recent works. What did the roblin/100 reconstruction cost? That's got to be public information.

The reconstruction of this interchange cost $11.3m in 2015.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

The reconstruction of this interchange cost $11.3m in 2015.

And that's without earthworks so maybe closer to that 20 million mark is in fact reasonable to assume for a simple diamond, maybe up to 25 just to be safe. No reason we shouldn't be putting in a couple a year at that price. Heck, just put 100 mil per year into putting in diamonds where they're needed throughout the province and it wouldn't be long before a lot of the problems with the major highways would be rectified.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The rail crossing at Main St can be closed and reroutes over to the rail crossing near #7. The Province had a study out for that a few years ago but cancelled it. The rail crossing should be combined with a farm access crossing under the highway there as well.

The dinky CEMR crossing at Wenzel should be closed. It serves only the oil plant and I think it serve(d) the paper mill in Pine Falls.

The Prairie Dog would be dealt with as part of #6.

Problem solved lol

[drew]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

And that's without earthworks so maybe closer to that 20 million mark is in fact reasonable to assume for a simple diamond, maybe up to 25 just to be safe. No reason we shouldn't be putting in a couple a year at that price. Heck, just put 100 mil per year into putting in diamonds where they're needed throughout the province and it wouldn't be long before a lot of the problems with the major highways would be rectified.

$11.3 million in 2015 correlates to about ~ $21 million in 2020 dollars assuming a conservative 15% annual construction cost inflation rate. Costs are basically doubled after 5 years.

This is why it is always cheaper to do it now.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

And that's without earthworks so maybe closer to that 20 million mark is in fact reasonable to assume for a simple diamond, maybe up to 25 just to be safe. No reason we shouldn't be putting in a couple a year at that price. Heck, just put 100 mil per year into putting in diamonds where they're needed throughout the province and it wouldn't be long before a lot of the problems with the major highways would be rectified.

Imagine if the province had opened one new diamond every three years since 2000. Hardly some kind of super-ambitious, super-expensive infrastructure program. By now the following intersections (for example... it could just as easily be others instead) could be grade-separated:

-100 at McGillivray
-100 at St. Mary's Road
-59 at Bird's Hill Road
-101 at Pipeline Road
-1W at Elie
-1W and 16
-100 at St. Anne's Road

with one more nearly built for 2021 at 1E at Deacon's Corner.

At $25 million a pop that's $200 million over 24 years for 8 diamonds, with improved safety and traffic flow. Obviously a super simple cocktail napkin sketch, but the point is there are a lot of low cost, high benefit gains that could be realized from small investments given the deficient state of highway junctions in this province.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Biff

^^That sounds like a hundred years away - the Perimeter at 6 lanes in the NE and Chief Peguis coming anywhere close to it.

I will take a $20m diamond to correct a dangerous intersection now and tear it down in the future when needed.

Let's be real here, of all the projects on the Perimeter is CPT (aka Gunn Rd) likely to have something done other than installing traffic lights anytime before CPT actually is extended to the Perimeter? Since the actual construction of grade separation there is going to line up with the needs plan it out for the future purpose and build basically one side of the four through lanes CPT will eventually have with planning in place on how to full build it out in stages if needed.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Really it depends what the scenario is.

A diamond at Gunn for example would be one of the cheapest interchanges to build. One two lane bridge. [cut] Maybe there would be traffic signals which will add another million.

My thinking is confirm the placement of the future CPT bridge and realign Gunn Rd with that even if it means building a service road for the interim. Then you build either the east or west through traffic span of what CPT will need. The north the east ground yield for the future design then meets the future through road at grade with a stop sign. You do similar with the future west to north at grade yield. Slap up a stop sign for the east to north traffic. Call it a day. Depending on the earth work and costs you maybe build the other bridges for the future state and don't do the concrete ramp work like was done for CCW. Having Gunn Rd traffic use stop signs isn't the issue, the current safety issues is about the left turns across busy traffic with zero controls on cross traffic. Having the left turns removed and meeting at a mutual set of stop signs when they cross paths significantly addresses the current need.

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

And that's without earthworks so maybe closer to that 20 million mark is in fact reasonable to assume for a simple diamond, maybe up to 25 just to be safe.

Keep in mind the Roblin rehab had minimal construction detours and included the demo and removal of the existing bridge structure. A net new diamond or more will likely need more temporarily roads but won't have the removal costs.

Originally Posted by cllew

Manitoba Hydro has not received coal in years. They converted the plant to natural gas in 2002.

The Selkirk plant has not been actively used since 2017. The full decommissioning and closure was announced earlier this year and is said will take several years to complete.

Link

[Biff]

Lots of interesting projects in the MB Highways 2021 Advertising Schedule.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/contracts/...edule_2020.pdf

- Functional Design for twinning Hwy 1 east of West Hawk access
- Design Build RFP for St Marys Interchange - Jun
- Intersection improvements at the Perimeter/Wenzel and Hwy 1/Deacons Corner
- Design for Symington Yard Overpass - Hwy 1
- Aimes Rd Structure over Seine River - will facilitate the closing of the Perimeter access and the construction of St Annes Interchange.

[bomberjet]

Ooooooooooooh.

Also listed:

Design of 3 Lake Manitoba Outlet Channel structures.
Daly Overpass in Brandon.

Is the Functional design for hwy 1 actually what it says. Just says grading functional design west of 301 underpass. Or is that just a placeholder name?

[esquire]

Twinning #1 all the way to the border? Paging Dengler Avenue!!!

Those are some loooong overdue improvements.

[Dengler Avenue]

Functional Design for twinning Hwy 1 east of West Hawk access

Maybe MB and ON will start work simultaneously after all.
Pallister though...

Paging Dengler Avenue!!!

Am I that famous here...
And probably Andy6 and DavefromSt.Vital too if those two ever decide to drive home via TCH~

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

Lots of interesting projects in the MB Highways 2021 Advertising Schedule.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/contracts/...edule_2020.pdf

- Functional Design for twinning Hwy 1 east of West Hawk access
- Design Build RFP for St Marys Interchange - Jun
- Intersection improvements at the Perimeter/Wenzel and Hwy 1/Deacons Corner
- Design for Symington Yard Overpass - Hwy 1
- Aimes Rd Structure over Seine River - will facilitate the closing of the Perimeter access and the construction of St Annes Interchange.

The words "intersection improvement" horrify me. It suggests that these locations which should really be either closures or grade separations are going to be at grade intersections for the foreseeable future.

That said, big win for the twinning of TCH to the border and the Symington overpass. Long overdue.