Why don't European cities seem to have suffered nearly as much with WFH culture?

[destroycreate]

Surely there are a lot of white collar professionals in all of the major European cities, where many people are only going into the office 2x a week. In the US, it seems like every major US city has pretty hollowed out cores that are way more dead (Seattle, LA, SF, Boston, DC come to mind) than they used to be due to lack of commuters. Surrounding retail/restaurants have suffered immensely. Or is WFH not nearly as common overseas?

[photoLith]

^
Id assume a lot of it in Europe has to do with their cities not really having CBDs like American cities. Also, people still largely live in the cities and suburbia isn't as disgustingly huge and sprawling as it is here.

[The North One]

I think it's pretty obvious European cores aren't nearly as centered around commuting office workers as American downtowns are.

[Crawford]

And they don't have as much WFH. They're pretty much back to pre-pandemic commuting patterns.

[iheartthed]

Do we know that business districts in Europe are doing better or is this just something they aren't making into political attacks the way it's being done in the U.S.?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Do we know that business districts in Europe are doing better or is this just something they aren't making into political attacks the way it's being done in the U.S.?

I'm guessing a little of both.

[sopas ej]

Might there be EU laws regarding WFH?

Here's one source of what percentage of workers in European countries WFH in 2022:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ing-in-the-eu/

And one source says that in the US, "As of 2023, 12.7% of full-time employees work from home, while 28.2% work a hybrid model." https://www.forbes.com/advisor/busin...20work%20model.

Anecdotally, I'm in the office M-F, 7a-4p, and my partner works from home 4 days a week, with one day at the office (used to be Tuesdays, but a month ago he switched to Wednesdays).

[craigs]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Surely there are a lot of white collar professionals in all of the major European cities, where many people are only going into the office 2x a week. In the US, it seems like every major US city has pretty hollowed out cores that are way more dead (Seattle, LA, SF, Boston, DC come to mind) than they used to be due to lack of commuters. Surrounding retail/restaurants have suffered immensely. Or is WFH not nearly as common overseas?

Downtown Los Angeles doesn't merit inclusion in a list of "hollowed out" cores, nor is it in as bad shape as the others you listed. DTLA is at about 83% of pre-COVID activity, compared with Boston at 70%, Washington at 69%, San Francisco at 67%, and Seattle at 57%.

[mhays]

The "Downtown Recovery" comparisons are apples and oranges. Looking at their maps, they use about 970 acres for DTLA. About 1,200 for DC. About 300 for Seattle. The larger you go the less it's about offices vs. other things.

Another factor for Europe is that people tend to have smaller homes where it's harder to set up decent office space.

[ilcapo]

My guess except for what has already been said above:

* Generally shorter commute times due to denser cities and better public transport.

* More attractive work areas with more to offer in the vicinity. Some CBD's in the US are very sterile.

Generally speaking of course. There are always exceptions.

[chris08876]

WFH also has its benefits in some respects for employers. Saving on office space, not having to say accommodate so much in an existing structure. There can be a cost savings in that respect.

I'd imagine with European cities, as mentioned above and in other posts, density is a big factor and also how jobs are concentrated, due to the density.

In the U.S., with office parks and things of that nature being separated, it sort of requires workers to essentially be all over the place, and not just in "X" job node or CBD in whatever city we are referencing at the time.

A lot of various sectors and industries are diversified over a large distance. Instead of "X" city being the place where all the sectors are concentrated, they are simply distributed over the metro area. Sometimes 35-40+ miles from the principle city. Your office parks, industrial parks, your warehousing, manufacturing and so on.

[kool maudit]

The centres are more mixed-use.

But if you listen to commercial real estate owners, they're just as anxious about this issue as in the US. It's just not as apparent from the cityscape.

[Bailey]

A few reasons

-Europeans probably don't have as much space, or services, in their home for an "extra office' like Americans do

-Europeans probably want more of a division between work and home and prefer not to mix the two

-Europeans, by all reports, are not as much of 'workaholics' as Americans. They probably view their daily office visit as part of a day filled with a variety of visits during the day, near their office, whereas Americans view commuting to the CBD as THE main and only reason for venturing into that part of the city.

[kool maudit]

It's not that different to the US in the Nordics. Tech and finance at least went to "come into work sometimes" after the pandemic because it was the best they could do. White-collar Stockholm is at home A LOT.

Companies regularly receive these kind of desperate-seeming brochures from big commercial landlords like Wallenstam and Catena advertising amenities and the thrill of the water-cooler exchange.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Bailey

-Europeans, by all reports, are not as much of 'work alcoholics' as Americans. They probably view their daily office visit as part of a day filled with a variety of visits during the day, near their office, whereas Americans view commuting to the CBD as THE main and only reason for venturing into that part of the city.

The third point is pretty legit, though. I don't know if it's because of peoples values or worldviews, but a lot of people who work in central Stockholm live there as well, and the core is pretty mixed-use.

I often go into the office in the morning after dropping my daughter at daycare, stay until around 12 or 1, maybe do some errands downtown and then head back to Södermalm to work from home in the afternoon, which is only a 10 minute bike ride or a three subway station trip.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Surely there are a lot of white collar professionals in all of the major European cities, where many people are only going into the office 2x a week. In the US, it seems like every major US city has pretty hollowed out cores that are way more dead (Seattle, LA, SF, Boston, DC come to mind) than they used to be due to lack of commuters. Surrounding retail/restaurants have suffered immensely. Or is WFH not nearly as common overseas?

I guess it helps if you have a 25 hour workweek.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And they don't have as much WFH. They're pretty much back to pre-pandemic commuting patterns.

It obviously depends on your occupation and on the business / boss you work for, as well as your personal choice or convenience.

Some people living in remote suburbs and working in suburban office parks have completely abandoned their offices since the pandemic, just like in the US.
Those usually live in houses with more room than what you get in the dense core and often had to drive for over an hour a day to get to their work place.
Working from home is just more convenient to them.

When you live in a narrow apartment in the central areas, with the subway nearby, working from home only part time is a better deal.
Many also like to frequently be in actual touch with their coworkers. When you work from home all the time, you may eventually feel less involved in your job.

Then again, it depends on every individual and their personalities or needs.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Bailey

A few reasons

-Europeans probably don't have as much space, or services, in their home for an "extra office' like Americans do

-Europeans probably want more of a division between work and home and prefer not to mix the two

-Europeans, by all reports, are not as much of 'workaholics' as Americans. They probably view their daily office visit as part of a day filled with a variety of visits during the day, near their office, whereas Americans view commuting to the CBD as THE main and only reason for venturing into that part of the city.

That's interesting. For me it's one of the main reasons that WFH doesn't work for me. It seems like I'm "contaminating" my house with work stuff.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Yuri

That's interesting. For me it's one of the main reasons that WFH doesn't work for me. It seems like I'm "contaminating" my house with work stuff.

I 100% relate to that.

I am two separate people inhabiting one body.

"Work me" and "home me".

When I was forced to become a soldier in the WFH army during the pandemic, home me tried to kill work me.

I nearly lost my fucking mind.

Never again.

I do not want to work where I live.

Give me office or give me death!

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I 100% relate to that.

I am two separate people inhabiting one body.

"Work me" and "home me".

When I was forced to become a soldier in the WFH army during the pandemic, home me tried to kill work me.

I nearly lost my fucking mind.

Never again.

I do not want to work where I live.

Give me office or give me death!

Me! Completely separated lives and personalities. I must have office and home separated.

I won't judge the WFH crowd though. I have a ridiculously easy commute in a city that can be insane. Even though I detest WFH, I'm not one of those dull people that like WFH or people who eat meat attacking vegetarians/vegans. Bitter people, I say.