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  #101  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:04 AM
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Moving up the Plains, here's souix falls, SD

not bad

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5445...7i16384!8i8192

Fargo ND looks nice

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.8779...7i16384!8i8192

meanwhile, Odessa TX - yuck

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.9975...7i13312!8i6656

St Cloud, MN and Duluth - moderately vibrant /good shape but less than you would expect given they're in Minnesota

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5611...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7860...7i16384!8i8192
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  #102  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:05 AM
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now that i think about it, i remember being shocked by the level of night time vibrancy in downtown springfield, mo. i guess my expectations were really low. its also on a plateau like atlanta and is actually cooler in the summer than you might expect for a southernish city.
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  #103  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:09 AM
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  #104  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:12 AM
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now that i think about it, i remember being shocked by the level of night time vibrancy in downtown springfield, mo. i guess my expectations were really low. its also on a plateau like atlanta and is actually cooler in the summer than you might expect for a southernish city.
Columbia MO looks pretty fine too

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9515...7i13312!8i6656

Springfield, IL seems like it should be more vibrant than it is

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8017...7i16384!8i8192

Bloomington also looks like it should be nicer, given its a college town

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4796...7i16384!8i8192

Lafayette, IL looks a lot nicer than Bloomington

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4191...7i16384!8i8192

as does Champaign, IL

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1172...7i16384!8i8192

meanwhile Decatur looks empty

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8429...7i16384!8i8192
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Last edited by dc_denizen; Aug 22, 2020 at 2:25 AM.
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  #105  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:20 AM
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^ Yeah, I guess for me, the major appeal of a small town/small city is easy access to the outdoors/surrounding wilderness. In the Dakotas, Rapid City is pretty nice.

For this reason though, I think that's why most midwestern, southern, and northeastern small towns don't do it for me - there's just not enough spectacular outdoor scenery nearby, and they rarely have the cultural vibrancy to stand on their own. Conversely, I think the midwest has the best mid-sized cities in the country.

There are exceptions of course, and most have been named in this thread. In the midwest, Duluth and Traverse City have the outdoor attractions and I've thought about giving them a try, but they're so culturally homogenous, and they don't have the student population of somewhere like Burlington VT to really get a lively downtown.
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  #106  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:27 AM
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meanwhile the larger cities have their tumors

St Louis

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7913.../data=!3m1!1e3

Indianapolis

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9600.../data=!3m1!1e3

Chicago

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0327.../data=!3m1!1e3

Kansas City

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8793.../data=!3m1!1e3

The small midwestern cities seem to offer a better quality of life than the above
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  #107  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:28 AM
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oh really? Producing as much gas as Texas is "minimal"?

Production is certainly one measure, yes (Marcellus was very lucrative initially but there's signs it's "tapping out" much faster than predicted). But aside from that, the scope of the oil & gas industry is simply a drop in the bucket of PA's economy compared to a state like Texas--literally one-ninth the size by employment: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/dsrv
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  #108  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:32 AM
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after taking this tour, I do think that the (western) midwest /plains can make a strong argument against the eastern midwest

eg

Iowa City - thriving, non-indigent citizens.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6612...7i16384!8i8192

vs Canton - my city in ruins, etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7986...7i16384!8i8192
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  #110  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:41 AM
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^ Uh, well that's not really fair. Iowa City is a college town, and probably the nicest place in the state outside of Des Moines.

In Iowa, somewhere like Sioux City would be a better comparison to Canton.
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  #111  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:54 AM
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I suppose.

Sioux City seems to have some awesome building stock, but less downtown retail than most of the other cities I posted, and a lot of garages/superblocks/brutalism

Fort Dodge seems to have too much of its downtown vitality sucked away by a mall

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5037...7i16384!8i8192

Ames, IA seems nice but I've seen nicer college towns

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0259...7i16384!8i8192

Waterloo looks empty

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4958...7i16384!8i8192

Dubuque as well, but has some great architectural gems here and there

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5016...7i16384!8i8192

On the other hand the quad cities seem nice,

Davenport - healthy

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5223...7i16384!8i8192

Rock Island - healthy

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5111...7i16384!8i8192

Moline - ok

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5066...7i16384!8i8192

Burlington, IA - this seems surprisingly urban and nice

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8099...7i16384!8i8192

Quincy, IL - seems to have great architecture, but a bit sparse

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9319...7i13312!8i6656

Never even heard of this place but it looks interesting and vibrant

Cape Girardeau, MO

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3061...7i16384!8i8192

what happened here

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0082...7i16384!8i8192
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Last edited by dc_denizen; Aug 22, 2020 at 3:06 AM.
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  #112  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Omaharocks View Post
^ Yeah, I guess for me, the major appeal of a small town/small city is easy access to the outdoors/surrounding wilderness. In the Dakotas, Rapid City is pretty nice.

For this reason though, I think that's why most midwestern, southern, and northeastern small towns don't do it for me - there's just not enough spectacular outdoor scenery nearby, and they rarely have the cultural vibrancy to stand on their own. Conversely, I think the midwest has the best mid-sized cities in the country.

There are exceptions of course, and most have been named in this thread. In the midwest, Duluth and Traverse City have the outdoor attractions and I've thought about giving them a try, but they're so culturally homogenous, and they don't have the student population of somewhere like Burlington VT to really get a lively downtown.
Depends where in the Northeast. In Southern New England, I'd generally agree (although I personally like seacoast scenery more than mountains). But once you get to Maine, Vermont, and the non-Boston parts of NH, there are awesome outdoor-oriented towns and small cities with spectacular scenery.

Check out some of Maine's lesser-known gems like Camden, Bath, Boothbay Harbor, and Bar Harbor.

(My answer to the OP is an obvious and unoriginal one, but I definitely feel it's the best: Portland, ME.)

Is there anything redeeming about St George, Utah? Because the scenery around that place looks otherworldly.
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  #113  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 3:20 AM
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Speaking of Burlington, VT:


source
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  #114  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 3:20 AM
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St. George itself is kind of meh. Nobody really visits Southern Utah for it's towns, but the natural scenery is sublime.

Most small towns in the Southwest, outside of Taos, Santa Fe and Durango pale in comparison to small towns/cities in New England and parts of the Midwest.
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  #115  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 3:23 AM
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In Montana, Bozeman seems quite nice, on par with Missoula

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6792...7i16384!8i8192

Butte less so, but extensive low-rise downtown

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.0127...7i16384!8i8192

Billings, still pretty vibrant

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829...7i16384!8i8192

finally Helena

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5888...7i16384!8i8192

Montana seems to have some unheralded urbanity, like KS
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  #116  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 3:28 AM
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Cheyenne and/or Laramie, Wyoming? Jackson Hole?
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  #117  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 4:28 AM
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surprised nobody's mentioned wilmington nc yet - i was there a few weeks ago and it's got some surprising bones.


https://www.airvuz.com/video/Wilming...ce1839f11ea85f
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  #118  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 6:27 AM
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Texas cities are weird. Most of the larger ones do an atrocious job of keeping downtown fresh. There are a lot of much smaller cities that have done a better job , but usually only have a few blocks of development. Most of these places are also heavily tourist oriented. None of them really ever got enough of an urban fabric to be even anywhere near as interesting as others across the country.

Fredericksburg (perhaps the most famous of all small Texas towns)
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2749...7i16384!8i8192

Sulpher Springs
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1376...7i13312!8i6656

Granbury
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.4431...7i16384!8i8192

Corsicana (The most underrated in Texas IMO)
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.0933...7i13312!8i6656

Another category is small cities as part of larger metros that have embraced and preserved downtown, such as

McKinney (probably my favorite of the bunch)
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1972...7i16384!8i8192

Waxahachie (DFW)
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3855...7i16384!8i8192

Grapevine (DFW)
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9375...7i16384!8i8192

New Braunfels (San Antonio)
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7024...7i16384!8i8192

San Marcos (between Austin & San Antonio + College town)
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.8830...7i16384!8i8192

And since this is skyscraperpage, here are some other cities that have high rises buildings that you may not have known about

San Angelo
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.8830...7i16384!8i8192

Port Arthur
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.8722...7i13312!8i6656

Beaumont
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0820...7i13312!8i6656

Mineral Wells
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8092...7i16384!8i8192

Tyler
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3511...7i13312!8i6656

Big Spring
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2529...7i13312!8i6656

Abilene
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.4515...7i13312!8i6656

Temple
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.0982...7i13312!8i6656

Texarkana
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4201...7i13312!8i6656

Brownwood
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7206...7i13312!8i6656
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  #119  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post

Never even heard of this place but it looks interesting and vibrant

Cape Girardeau, MO

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3061...7i16384!8i8192

what happened here

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0082...7i16384!8i8192
if you’ve seen Gone Girl you’ve seen cape girardeau...another surprisingly vibrant/intact quasi southern missouri town. it was called north carthage. cape is at a key geographical location between st. louis and memphis where the ozarks tie into where the delta really starts, and on the mississippi river of course.

compare cape girardeau with carbondale, il (i’m in both places a lot) cape has great bones, even a mini skycraper, mid 19th century architecture, and just finished a road diet on a road thats sort of its midtown (the streetview area you selected).

on the other hand carbondale suffered horrifically from what appears to be a statewide targeted urban renewal program which included massive one way streets (like 4 lane wide roads in small cities), lots o demolition, and a buttload of 60s stripmalls both downtown and on the outskirts. these massive one way streets that i find in towns and cities across downstate illinois are really a bane. https://goo.gl/maps/RSWcbXdhaz4fjoRK7

cairo is cairo of course. the manhattan of the midwest that wasnt to be. part of my family is from the missouri side in the missouri “delta” and back up towards cape so i know the area well. cairo wants to put in a container port now but so does every mid-mississippi valley city south of the last lock before the gulf just north of downtown st. louis. as before st. louis sort of makes cairo redundant before it even had a chance.
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Last edited by Centropolis; Aug 22, 2020 at 9:40 AM.
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  #120  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 12:03 PM
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While not really vibrant, there's some glimpses of older urbanity in surprising places.

For example, a fair amount of rowhouses in Dubuque, Iowa. In multiple different parts of the downtown area as well. Apparently at one point it was the "rowhouse capitol of Iowa.

Another great example is Wheeling, WV. At one point in the early 1800s it was briefly one of the top 10 biggest U.S. cities. The downtown area is pretty wrecked/dead, but there's a lot of old urbanity remaining. More impressive is an area just to the south of Downtown, called Center Wheeling. There's an absolutely fantastic row of Victorian-era townhomes here.
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