Tucson Development Thread

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by AZ71

Its weird to me there isnt a Phx to Vegas route rail. And even stranger no Vegas to SF (or central CA hookup at Stockton or Merced). Just seem really inefficient to me.

At least the existing Maricopa stop maybe they'll be a Tucson to LA route bypassing Phx altogether saving some time since Amtrak is still going to take SO LONG to get anywhere.

But the stupidest is no service to San Diego? I would say there are more folks that would use a Phx or Tucson to San Diego route than to LA.

This is what you get for using existing 50 year+ lines instead of building a new transportation sytem with High Speed Rail.

The answer to that is mountains and elevation changes. A big dirty secret about trains is they dont do well on inclines.

The routes you see travel through natural passes, if you don't do that you have to spend UNGODLY sums of money punching tunnels through mountains.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The answer to that is mountains and elevation changes. A big dirty secret about trains is they dont do well on inclines.

The routes you see travel through natural passes, if you don't do that you have to spend UNGODLY sums of money punching tunnels through mountains.

Pretty much sums it up. BNSF does have a line from Phoenix up to Ash Fork which could potentially connect to Amtrak in Ash Fork and on to Kingman. But that is a difficult line with many grades and curves which would slow Amtrak service to a crawl. And I don't see a new line jutting up from Kingmam to Las Vegas due to the difficulty of getting across the Colorado which is still in a massive canyon system below Hoover Dam...not too mention trying to get a new line through Lake Mead National Recreation area would probably get tons of backlash.

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The answer to that is mountains and elevation changes. A big dirty secret about trains is they dont do well on inclines.

The routes you see travel through natural passes, if you don't do that you have to spend UNGODLY sums of money punching tunnels through mountains.

Its 2022. You think they could figure something out. If they can build rail on the sides of cliffs in Colorado 150 years ago using steam engine power...I think they can figure out a route from El Centro to El Cajon. Its not that steep and its considerably less rocky down by the border down near Campo to Tecate. Just saying, anything can be done. I just find the US takes the easiest cheapest way out of everything which is why we have subpar transportation across the country. We dont invest in anything. Thank goodness they invested in the rails 150 years ago. And the highway system in the 50s. Clearly neither of these things could be built today. We cant even manage a HSR on flat desert for 113 miles to Phx.

[Eapiwo]

Originally Posted by Hjb

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster. With the signing of the Infrastructure bill I feel that this is as good of a time as ever to post my map. I have always been inspired by the map that u/kaneui has made and continued to update throughout the years. I love the Streetcar that Tucson has and would love to see it expanded into a network across the metropolitan area. I have slowly worked on my own map with the transit options over a few years. It is of course a forever work in progress and I would very much appreciate any feedback and constructive criticism. Hopefully with the passing of the new bill by the Biden Administration we will be able to have one or more new lines constructed.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...139851493&z=13

I like the routes, the airport to Tucson Mall route seems to be similar to what the city has in mind, and there's a lot of parking lots and empty lots along that route that need to be developed. Personally, I'd like to see that route be built first and soon.

Additionally, I made my own vision for the streetcar extension into the El Rio Golf Course with the golf course being redeveloped into a high density residential zone without really building anything that will be towering over the neighborhoods nearby and creating new bike and pedestrian access along the route to better connect to the apartments, businesses, and homes. Additionally, I'd love to see an extremely livable and walkable community there with ample outdoor amenities for residents such as shaded jogging tracks, sports, plazas, and ponds. I'd love someplace here to be culturally significant and not just be another parking lot but somewhere that residents truly love. I do like the idea of running lightrails down major Tucson arterials, but I think the cost and effort of doing so will be politically draining for anyone who tries to pursue it. Especially routes to the East side, as residents there will likely be very opposed to any new higher density housing to support the routes and choose to use their own personal vehicles instead (though, some residents here are just flat out angry whenever anything gets built). The route I've envisioned mostly stays off the busiest streets in Tucson and has a good amount of local businesses that would benefit from better access to their location. This route only crosses three signalized intersections and adds 2.5 miles to the existing streetcar route. I'm sure bulldozing one of the city's many, many golf courses will come with opposition but it's a great location to create a wonderful district that is much more walkable than the rest of the city. I'd also note that this route passes the Arizona State School for the Blind and Deaf which means Tucson could create a wonderful opportunity for blind residents to commute without the dependence of someone with the ability to drive them. I'd imagine this would be cheaper to build than the existing streetcar was too since it won't need a bridge over the Santa Cruz, doesn't disrupt traffic on busy and important roads like Broadway, Congress, and 4th Ave, and it only crosses 3 signalized intersections (though to be more ADA accommodating, HAWK crossings should be installed along the route afterwards). The route goes down Grande Ave for most of its duration and the road is fairly wide for such a low volume road. It has a two way left turn lane throughout, and eventually even has an additional lane in each direction for a segment, which could easily be reduced to one lane in each direction while providing the streetcar, pedestrians, and bikes their own travel lanes. The biggest problem would definitely be getting people to develop the El Rio site itself which would be necessary to make this project worthwhile.

Edit: In case the legend was hard to read on the map, the teal line is the streetcar, purple lines are enhanced pedestrian and bike paths.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by AZ71

Its 2022. You think they could figure something out. If they can build rail on the sides of cliffs in Colorado 150 years ago using steam engine power...I think they can figure out a route from El Centro to El Cajon. Its not that steep and its considerably less rocky down by the border down near Campo to Tecate. Just saying, anything can be done. I just find the US takes the easiest cheapest way out of everything which is why we have subpar transportation across the country. We dont invest in anything. Thank goodness they invested in the rails 150 years ago. And the highway system in the 50s. Clearly neither of these things could be built today. We cant even manage a HSR on flat desert for 113 miles to Phx.

Building through mountains when its the only way to travel has people much more willing to pay the costs and deal with the inefficiencies. Even so modern trains will, wherever possible, follow the "flattest" path, only doing tunnels where absolutely necessary.

Could we invent some better train? Maglev? Maybe I suppose but why? Its cheaper and faster just to go around or put those people and cargo on planes and trucks in those spots.

Trains are great where they work (flat densely populated areas) and not great in the places they dont work.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by AZ71

Its 2022. You think they could figure something out. If they can build rail on the sides of cliffs in Colorado 150 years ago using steam engine power...I think they can figure out a route from El Centro to El Cajon. Its not that steep and its considerably less rocky down by the border down near Campo to Tecate. Just saying, anything can be done. I just find the US takes the easiest cheapest way out of everything which is why we have subpar transportation across the country. We dont invest in anything. Thank goodness they invested in the rails 150 years ago. And the highway system in the 50s. Clearly neither of these things could be built today. We cant even manage a HSR on flat desert for 113 miles to Phx.

It is definitely true they could work and the only way cars/trucks/planes are more economic is because of immense subsidies for those modes. Trains work well in mountainous climates around the world, anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to convince you highway and airport subsidies are better. Whether or not the train would be able to connect you to useful/dense areas is another story but is not as unsolvable as people want you to believe.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Looks like HSL just pulled a $10 million building permit this week for a Springhill suites that’s finally going in next to the UofA refinery project at the bridges.

It should be done by the end of 2022.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by rockies

It is definitely true they could work and the only way cars/trucks/planes are more economic is because of immense subsidies for those modes. Trains work well in mountainous climates around the world, anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to convince you highway and airport subsidies are better. .

That dont work well in mountains, never have. I dont know why you want to pretend people have nefarious motives.

[InTheBurbs]

A few items from the past few months (that are news to me anyway)

AZPM to build new $45M facility at The Bridges: https://azbex.com/ua-to-develop-45m-...edia-facility/

Seems like a better location would have been closer to downtown or campus, like along Broadway or on the West Side. But can see why they would choose University property even if not that close to campus.

Proposal submitted to convert Hotel Tucson City Center to Multi-family: https://azbex.com/tucson-hotel-to-co...o-multifamily/

Rezoning has been submitted to convert the hotel at 475 N Granada into a 15 building, 364 unit apartment complex. Plans are to convert the 7 current hotel buildings into apartments, and build 8 additional 2-3 story buildings on the site. Sounds like they expected to get the rezoning approval, but the hotel is still accepting reservations.



Anyone hear any update on this one?

[Patrick S]

Good news for Oro Valley

Leonardo Electronics US brings 200 more jobs to Oro Valley

[Ted Lyons]

Some quick notes about tomorrow’s RN meeting:

1. Although still being discussed exclusively in executive session, the lawsuit against Nor-Gen is now being described as “pending” rather than “potential.”

2. There will be a presentation about the redevelopment of Hotel Arizona in the open session.

[crzyabe]

I listened in on the Rio Nuevo (RN) meeting.

- Nothing new regarding Arena lot or 75 East Broadway

- RN Revenue is growing significantly as businesses reopen. They are also seeing increased requests for assistance from businesses looking to relocate to downtown Tucson.

- Zemams is looking to expand into the two buildings to the west of their current location. It will have an "International Sports Bar" (Soccer, Cricket and Rugby), an expanded Zemams, and a coffee shop. Zemams asked for $500k in assistance. This plan was approved and received funding from RN

- The Hotel Arizona group (HSL) is asking for support for two projects. The First is the renovation of the old Hotel Arizona into a Hyatt with roughly 290 rooms. The second is the construction of a senior living facility. This will be built in the newly demolished lot just to the east of the hotel (between the hotel and the Flin apartments) and have between 80-100 units and 8-10 stories. The Senior Living facility is being billed as an upscale, urban option for seniors. It will have valet, onsite theater, dining, etc. This is a $40mil project with construction starting Summer of 22. HSL asked RN to allow the hotel and the senior facility to have access to 150 parking spots in the new Parking Lot C (Behind the Music Hall). RN allowed access to the parking spots for 2 years for free, then at a rental fee after that.

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

I listened in on the Rio Nuevo (RN) meeting.

- Nothing new regarding Arena lot or 75 East Broadway

- RN Revenue is growing significantly as businesses reopen. They are also seeing increased requests for assistance from businesses looking to relocate to downtown Tucson.

- Zemams is looking to expand into the two buildings to the west of their current location. It will have an "International Sports Bar" (Soccer, Cricket and Rugby), an expanded Zemams, and a coffee shop. Zemams asked for $500k in assistance. This plan was approved and received funding from RN

- The Hotel Arizona group (HSL) is asking for support for two projects. The First is the renovation of the old Hotel Arizona into a Hyatt with roughly 290 rooms. The second is the construction of a senior living facility. This will be built in the newly demolished lot just to the east of the hotel (between the hotel and the Flin apartments) and have between 80-100 units and 8-10 stories. The Senior Living facility is being billed as an upscale, urban option for seniors. It will have valet, onsite theater, dining, etc. This is a $40mil project with construction starting Summer of 22. HSL asked RN to allow the hotel and the senior facility to have access to 150 parking spots in the new Parking Lot C (Behind the Music Hall). RN allowed access to the parking spots for 2 years for free, then at a rental fee after that.

I dont think RN should offer HSL jack for a senior living center. They can make room in their Hotel AZ space or build something in the garage they tore down to the west of it. (Which they should be building an amazing retail/apt/entertainment building on that corner). They also have the entire parking garage directly across from the Flin. I swear they are a horrible company with no direction for downtown building and trying to squeeze every drop out of RN they can They have no vision other than crappy apt buildings.

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by AZ71

They can make room in their Hotel AZ space or build something in the garage they tore down to the west of it. (Which they should be building an amazing retail/apt/entertainment building on that corner).

I forgot to mention that this corner was mentioned in passing. They do not yet have plans for the corner, but they said they understand the importance of its location and will build something to meets that importance.

[andrewsaturn]

I was at work and half listening and watching. But was able to screenshot a couple of pics. HSL designs are so underwhelming.

[combusean]

Senior living for a convention center and hotel? What? That's like the exact opposite thing to put there.

Why does anyone talk to HSL? He literally offers nothing for the city, hasn't his ratty hotel been closed for almost a decade now. Why does he think he can do this?

[somethingfast]

Humberto is only interested in enriching himself. He's not interested in adding any kind of legacy. He represents all that is wrong with Tucson imho.

PS - those buildings are 70's value-engineering at its finest !

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by combusean

Senior living for a convention center and hotel? What? That's like the exact opposite thing to put there.

Why does anyone talk to HSL? He literally offers nothing for the city, hasn't his ratty hotel been closed for almost a decade now. Why does he think he can do this?

I guess maybe they think there is $$$ in upscale senior living. They're doing something similar out at the Rocking K development. They're building homes out there just to rent aimed at seniors/snowbirds, etc. Maybe this is the same type of thing.

Honestly....the city and RN need to have some kind of development guidelines for the city cause its gonna hurt them in the long run. The FLIN should have been some type of entertainment venue to offer a new destination for people to come downtown and for overflow from TCC conventions. Shopping, restaurants, bars, etc. The concept of La Placita Village wasn't wrong...it was just butt ugly and a mess to navigate and old and replacing it with The Flin was a huge mistake. At minimum they should have demanded it be mixed-use with all the lower levels as retail and restaurants.

Tucson is so sad. We have people running this town with no vision.

[Eapiwo]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

Humberto is only interested in enriching himself. He's not interested in adding any kind of legacy. He represents all that is wrong with Tucson imho.

PS - those buildings are 70's value-engineering at its finest !

I'm not sure that Humberto or HSL are the villains of this story and I don't think Tucson lacks vision. I think downtown just struggled to recover from the 1960's urban renewal that leveled the vibrancy of downtown to build courthouses and convention space. The city bowed down to the automobile and destroyed what was a walkable region and the effects were catastrophic. How is a downtown with no residents supposed to thrive? At that point you’re basically just an office park, busy in the day but dead at night. As of the 2020 census, the census block that contains the convention center and downtown core was only home to 930 people which is astoundingly low for a city’s core (though the census were taken prior to several large housing projects being finished which would have brought that number up). The organic growth that fuels the growth of downtowns in America was suddenly removed from this part of Downtown Tucson. We’ve barely started rebuilding this region for Tucsonans to live in again as of the late 2010s. The 2020s look like a continuation of this trend, which is good. With hundreds of residents having moved in due to the Flinn, Rendezvous, and other projects, it’ll be interesting to see how they bring life back into the neighborhood.

Could five architecturally stunning 30 story buildings be built downtown? Yeah, physically you can do it. But that’s not the market we have in this city for this kind of housing and almost certainly won’t have in the future either. There’s just not that demand, unless the cost of building a skyscraper plummets and high rise rents become more competitive with suburban projects. The Flinn isn’t a bad project. It’s 250 homes. That’s something that land hasn’t had in almost half a century. 90 more homes for rich retirees who are going to hop on the streetcar and spend their time at the Mercado District, and 4th Avenue on an underutilized space wedged between the Flinn and presently abandoned hotel is progress, in my opinion. If every building, block to block was exclusively luxury housing for seniors then we’d have a problem, but an 8 story building in that space for 90 units is a reasonable step towards trying to move on from the renewal of the 60’s that the city barely started recovering from in the last decade. Getting people back downtown should be the priority, not satisfying the needs of the patrons of the convention center. That’s what got us into this big mess to begin with. There’s plenty of places for patrons of the convention center to go downtown, that’s no longer a problem. The problem is downtown didn’t have enough people living there to make it a vibrant neighborhood. HSL is just guilty of boring architecture.

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by Eapiwo

I'm not sure that Humberto or HSL are the villains of this story and I don't think Tucson lacks vision. I think downtown just struggled to recover from the 1960's urban renewal that leveled the vibrancy of downtown to build courthouses and convention space. The city bowed down to the automobile and destroyed what was a walkable region and the effects were catastrophic. How is a downtown with no residents supposed to thrive? At that point you’re basically just an office park, busy in the day but dead at night. As of the 2020 census, the census block that contains the convention center and downtown core was only home to 930 people which is astoundingly low for a city’s core (though the census were taken prior to several large housing projects being finished which would have brought that number up). The organic growth that fuels the growth of downtowns in America was suddenly removed from this part of Downtown Tucson. We’ve barely started rebuilding this region for Tucsonans to live in again as of the late 2010s. The 2020s look like a continuation of this trend, which is good. With hundreds of residents having moved in due to the Flinn, Rendezvous, and other projects, it’ll be interesting to see how they bring life back into the neighborhood.

Could five architecturally stunning 30 story buildings be built downtown? Yeah, physically you can do it. But that’s not the market we have in this city for this kind of housing and almost certainly won’t have in the future either. There’s just not that demand, unless the cost of building a skyscraper plummets and high rise rents become more competitive with suburban projects. The Flinn isn’t a bad project. It’s 250 homes. That’s something that land hasn’t had in almost half a century. 90 more homes for rich retirees who are going to hop on the streetcar and spend their time at the Mercado District, and 4th Avenue on an underutilized space wedged between the Flinn and presently abandoned hotel is progress, in my opinion. If every building, block to block was exclusively luxury housing for seniors then we’d have a problem, but an 8 story building in that space for 90 units is a reasonable step towards trying to move on from the renewal of the 60’s that the city barely started recovering from in the last decade. Getting people back downtown should be the priority, not satisfying the needs of the patrons of the convention center. That’s what got us into this big mess to begin with. There’s plenty of places for patrons of the convention center to go downtown, that’s no longer a problem. The problem is downtown didn’t have enough people living there to make it a vibrant neighborhood. HSL is just guilty of boring architecture.

Agree with you on one point that HSL is guilty of boring architecture. But I also disagree that they had to basically build a "projects" style apartment complex over a huge swath of land when it could have been consolidated into one single taller structure. There aren't places for convention folks to walk to downtown for entertainment or restaurants that are in the immediate TCC complex. They have to go up to Congress street. This doesn't fulfill the need of folks attending a convention who have a 30 minute break to have to walk all that way. The TCC lacks things that are vital to making it and the surrounding area successful.

I do agree you need a downtown with people living in it. That's why the 75 E Broadway building tanked cause it was primarily Class A office space and covid hit. If that tower would have been apartments and condos with a hotel thrown in it would have progressed.

I think we're on the same page. But I'm discouraged at the lackluster architecture that is being brought in. Rio Nuevo also consistently hires developers that cant produce their proposals. Its time we hire outside developers to create some noteworthy structures that have the ability, connections and money to complete these projects.