Southern cities with a "big city" feel?

[goat314]

Originally Posted by BEER

https://goo.gl/maps/1zxLT7wwmANkamhDA

Not in the South?

I agree, Florida is not only the South. It is the Deep South. That includes Miami. Even with the large influx of Northerners and Latin American immigrants. I don't see how anybody could mistake Florida for being anything but a Southern state. I know Latinos from Miami with Southern accents. I must have a completely different circle of people that I hang out with when I go to Southern Florida. It's like people don't consider the native White and Black Floridians to even be relevant or exist anymore. They still have a huge impact on the culture of the state. There is also a sense that every Florida transplant is from the North, when I have met just as many people from Georgia, the Carolinas, Louisiana, Mississippi, etc. all over Florida and they definitely bring their ways with them. I would say that Florida is just a very diverse Southern state. Nothing about Florida is particularly Northern to me, but a lot of things are still very Southern. It's even more evident when you leave Florida for a while and comeback with a fresh set of eyes.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by goat314

I agree, Florida is not only the South. It is the Deep South. That includes Miami.

Whaat? So Miami, with the demographics of Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx, actually resembles Tunica, MS? The Deep South is characterized by Orthodox Jews, Italians, former Soviets and Carribean peoples?

North Florida, north of Orlando, certainly has strong Southern elements. But South Florida is about as Southern as NYC or Boston. Someone living in Boca or Hialeah has about as much exposure to traditional Southern norms as someone living in Connecticut.

[BnaBreaker]

Anybody that doesn't think Miami is southern culturally to any degree at all probably hasn't spent a lot of time outside of Little Havana and South Beach.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker

Anybody that doesn't think Miami is southern culturally to any degree at all probably hasn't spent a lot of time outside of Little Havana and South Beach.

Where in South Florida is there a degree of Southern cultural influence analogous to, say, anywhere in Alabama?

West Palm, Weston, Aventura, Coral Gables, to me, are as southern as Long Island. There are heavy Latin and NE corridor influences, no real influences from traditional Dixie.

South Florida was empty when the South was a strongly defined concept, so one wouldn't expect cultural markers, like Baptist/Methodist churches, Scotch Irish background, king cotton, blues, etc.

[KB0679]

We need to start using the terminology "Cities in the South" instead of "Southern cities" here. Maybe that will reduce the probability that tangential discussions about Miami (and DC and Baltimore at times) eventually take over the thread.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by goat314

I agree, Florida is not only the South. It is the Deep South. That includes Miami. Even with the large influx of Northerners and Latin American immigrants. I don't see how anybody could mistake Florida for being anything but a Southern state. I know Latinos from Miami with Southern accents. I must have a completely different circle of people that I hang out with when I go to Southern Florida. It's like people don't consider the native White and Black Floridians to even be relevant or exist anymore. They still have a huge impact on the culture of the state. There is also a sense that every Florida transplant is from the North, when I have met just as many people from Georgia, the Carolinas, Louisiana, Mississippi, etc. all over Florida and they definitely bring their ways with them. I would say that Florida is just a very diverse Southern state. Nothing about Florida is particularly Northern to me, but a lot of things are still very Southern. It's even more evident when you leave Florida for a while and comeback with a fresh set of eyes.

Exactly. As a person with family lineage with origination and that goes back generations in Georgia and Florida, I agree.

I guess it's the way some people experience Florida. If you only go to vacation and just hit the tourist spots (in which Florida does have aplenty) and socialize with other visitors, then you may think it's not 'southern' - whatever that means.

But if you know and experience Florida like I do - family reunions, college football, cookouts, HBCUs homecoming, etc. - it ain't that much different than Georgia/North Carolina/South Carolina/Virginia which all have beaches and amusement parks too -- not to the extent of Florida or promoted as much - but they still do.

I have known and experienced Florida for decades. (I even ain't that old). The boom in Florida still amazes me though. It is very popular with Northerners and Midwesterners. But not so much with Georgians or Carolinians. We like it. But my oh my - you Michiganders, Ohioans, New Yorkers, etc - y'all LOVE it. Maybe that's why you don't think its 'southern'.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker

Anybody that doesn't think Miami is southern culturally to any degree at all probably hasn't spent a lot of time outside of Little Havana and South Beach.

[TWAK]

Houston reminded me of LA more than Hotlanta, but both reminded me of the "big city" feel no doubt. The question is did any of you bums mention Augusta? It's 8 pages so I didn't look at all of them!

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Whaat? So Miami, with the demographics of Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx, actually resembles Tunica, MS? The Deep South is characterized by Orthodox Jews, Italians, former Soviets and Carribean peoples?

North Florida, north of Orlando, certainly has strong Southern elements. But South Florida is about as Southern as NYC or Boston. Someone living in Boca or Hialeah has about as much exposure to traditional Southern norms as someone living in Connecticut.

Boca and Hialeah are specific areas of the Miami-Ft.Lauderdale metro and definitely not representative of the area as a whole. Go to Miami Gardens, Homestead, Opa-Locka, freaking Plantation....there is a city in South Florida called PLANTATION! Miami was a Jim Crow segregated city for much of it's history and it is still very evident today. In fact, I would argue that Miami is possibly one of the worst cities for African-Americans in the South but that's a whole different story.

Demographically, Miami is a super diverse city but that is largely due to it's proximity to Latin America and the Caribbean not because of it's lack of Southerness. A Southern city can't be an immigrant hub? Houston is definitely Southern and is arguably more diverse than Miami. Houston is also a Southern city, so is Miami.

I see very little in common culturally or aesthetically to NYC or Boston and Miami. They are completely different worlds. Also, Tampa and Orlando are solidly Southern cities. That is not even worth a debate. There was a confederate flag that was recently taken down on the I-4/I-75 interchange in Tampa. There area also numerous confederate cemeteries all over Florida, including Dade County.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Where in South Florida is there a degree of Southern cultural influence analogous to, say, anywhere in Alabama?

West Palm, Weston, Aventura, Coral Gables, to me, are as southern as Long Island. There are heavy Latin and NE corridor influences, no real influences from traditional Dixie.

South Florida was empty when the South was a strongly defined concept, so one wouldn't expect cultural markers, like Baptist/Methodist churches, Scotch Irish background, king cotton, blues, etc.

Dude, there is literally a major thoroughfare in Miami called DIXIEHIGHWAY! There is a city down there called PLANTATION! Go to the black American community in Miami and I'm sure you will see a lot of the other vestiges of Miami's Southern heritage. A lot of the White Southerners moved to Palm Beach and Broward County, aka White Flight. It's really not that hard to figure out man. Miami has a Southern history. Doesn't take away from the city. Makes it a very unique place with all the mixture of cultures, but Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, Broward, etc. are all Southern counties.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by goat314

Demographically, Miami is a super diverse city but that is largely due to it's proximity to Latin America and the Caribbean not because of it's lack of Southerness. A Southern city can't be an immigrant hub? Houston is definitely Southern and is arguably more diverse than Miami. Houston is also a Southern city, so is Miami.

Houston feels southern, Miami doesn't. There might be vestiges of the South still around Miami but the influx of northerners and Latin Americans have largely diluted its southerness.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Where in South Florida is there a degree of Southern cultural influence analogous to, say, anywhere in Alabama?

West Palm, Weston, Aventura, Coral Gables, to me, are as southern as Long Island. There are heavy Latin and NE corridor influences, no real influences from traditional Dixie.

South Florida was empty when the South was a strongly defined concept, so one wouldn't expect cultural markers, like Baptist/Methodist churches, Scotch Irish background, king cotton, blues, etc.

miami was founded by a clevelander. there was nothing there. then a pittsburgher brought the railroad and made it a place. then generally ny’ers took to it, just as people from other places in the ne and midwest took to other parts of florida.

there is no question it would have been developed regardless as the usa grew, but thats how it happened. the southern culture of it is much more vague than the south. did it and does it still have southern elements, of course, some, but that pales compared to literally anywhere else in the south. the only thing less southern i can think of in a southern state is marfa, which is basically a very small and very nyc art world-centric outpost in sw texas.

[BEER]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

miami was founded by a clevelander. there was nothing there. then a pittsburgher brought the railroad and made it a place. then generally ny’ers took to it, just as people from other places in the ne and midwest took to other parts of florida.

there is no question it would have been developed regardless as the usa grew, but thats how it happened. the southern culture of it is much more vague than the south. did it and does it still have southern elements, of course, some, but that pales compared to literally anywhere else in the south. the only thing less southern i can think of in a southern state is marfa, which is basically a very small and very nyc art world-centric outpost in sw texas.

The Northern culture is vague as well. Is there even a Northern culture? If there is, what is it? The founding of a city by an outsider has occurred in every single new city on Earth. Miami's founding by a midwesterner is irrelevant, after all, New York City was founded by the Dutch.

One more thing, Bangor, Maine has very little similarities to a place like Newark, New Jersey, but they are both Northern cities. New York City is a unique city for any region in North America. I don't think there would be too many people that would come up with reasons as to why it is not located in the North, or part of the Northern states.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by BEER

The Northern culture is vague as well. Is there even a Northern culture? If there is, what is it? The founding of a city by an outsider has occurred in every single new city on Earth. Miami's founding by a midwesterner is irrelevant, after all, New York City was founded by the Dutch.

One more thing, Bangor, Maine has very little similarities to a place like Newark, New Jersey, but they are both Northern cities. New York City is a unique city for any region in North America. I don't think there would be too many people that would come up with reasons as to why it is not located in the North, or part of the Northern states.

its not irrelevant at all, its how the place was actually started. making it not really southern from jump street. but yeah lol, you could just write anything off as eventually unconnected to anything, but thats neither true nor fun.

there is something to the history of the ny’ers moving en masse to se florida and making a whole new type of city though. i mean yeah it certainly isnt the north transplanted one to one to the south either, that is very true. i can get with thinking about it that way for sure. for one thing se fla is a different mix of people all its own.

but then you could also say the same about los angeles, phoenix, vegas or probably anywhere as well though too. distant cities change over time and from their roots pretty easily. and so miami has uniqueness and a bit of southern flair.

[austlar1]

Well, Miami area may have been favored by folks from the NE from its early inception, but it was definitely run by Southerners who enforced Jim Crow laws and other tools of racial and religious discrimination well into the post ww2 era. https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/r...racism-8306647

[austlar1]

I have my own civil rights era segregation memory involving Miami Beach dating from the summer of 1957. I was 11 years old and a visitor to Miami Beach along with my sister and my parents. We were a Jewish family from Texas. Anyway, we were staying at the then brand-new Americana Hotel in Bar Harbor (northern end of Miami Beach). While we were there, Columbia Records held their annual distributors convention at the hotel. Columbia had lined up a star-studded array of their recording artists to perform live for the distributors in the hotel's Bal Masque supper club. Johnny Mathis was the label's hottest new recording artist, and he was staying in rooms at the Americana in spite of the fact that hotels in Miami were still officially segregated in 1957. Columbia Records held a lot of sway (I am guessing) with the Tisch family, the owners of the hotel. Anyway, one afternoon I was poolside with my family when a very nervous (it was obvious to this 11 year old that I might be witnessing a bit of history) Johnny Mathis arrived at the pool with a small entourage of record industry types. Mathis was wearing bathing trunks and settled into a lounge chair by the pool. Others in his party jumped into the pool. Soon they were encouraging Mathis to join them in the pool. Mathis was clearly unsettled by the invitation and seemed very reluctant to get in the pool. Keep in mind, he was the biggest recording star of the year. After a great deal of encouragement and reassurances, Mathis finally jumped into the pool for a quick swim. After emerging from the pool, he almost immediately left the pool area and went inside the hotel. I always remembered that moment, as it seemed to signify something important. By the way, my parents managed to get me and my sister into the supper club to watch the big show which featured Mathis and a dozen or more other Columbia recording artists. Probably the best thing about my not very happy childhood was the fact that we got to travel a lot. I also remember going to a dinner show with my parents a few years earlier (1955) in Miami Beach where we saw a very young Sammy Davis, Jr. perform with his father and Will Mastin in the Will Mastin Trio. I remember my father speculating the the trio were not allowed to stay at hotels on Miami Beach. I guess I was 9 at the time, but I was a veteran of night club dinner shows because, at an even earlier age, I went to at least two dinnertime (early) shows in Las Vegas at hotels (Sands and Desert Inn) along the mostly vacant-lot-studded Las Vegas Blvd. It was just turning into The Strip at that time. Anyway, I am getting far off topic. Point being, Miami and Miami Beach had a long history of racial segregation and adherence to Jim Crow laws. Old school southern white law enforcement still held sway in the region until probably the 1980s.

[pj3000]

It’s always interesting to hear these same perceptions about Miami by people who: 1) don’t live here, 2) have never lived here, 3) have visited, or 4) have never even visited... over and over through the years on this forum.

[BEER]

Originally Posted by austlar1

I have my own civil rights era segregation memory involving Miami Beach dating from the summer of 1957. I was 11 years old and a visitor to Miami Beach along with my sister and my parents. We were a Jewish family from Texas. Anyway, we were staying at the then brand-new Americana Hotel in Bar Harbor (northern end of Miami Beach). While we were there, Columbia Records held their annual distributors convention at the hotel. Columbia had lined up a star studded array of their recording artists to perform live for the distributors in the hotel's Bal Masque supper club. Johnny Mathis was the label's hottest new recording artist, and he was staying in rooms at the Americana in spite of the fact that hotels in Miami were still officially segregated in 1957. Columbia records held a lot of sway (I am guessing) with the Tisch family, the owners of the hotel. Anyway, one afternoon I was poolside with my family when a very nervous (it was obvious to this 11 year old that I was witnessing something significant) Johnny Mathis arrived at the pool with a small entourage of record industry types. Mathis was wearing bathing trunks and settled into a lounge chair by the pool. Others in his party jumped into the pool. Soon they were encouraging Mathis to join them in the pool. Mathis was clearly unsettled by the invitation and seemed very reluctant to get in the pool. Keep in mind, he was the biggest recording star of the year. After a great deal of encouragement and reassurances, Mathis very reluctantly jumped into the pool for a quick swim. After emerging from the pool, he almost immediately left the pool area and went inside the hotel. I always remembered that moment as it seemed to me to signify something important. By the way, my parents managed to get me and my sister into the supper club to watch the big show which featured Mathis and a dozen or more other Columbia recording artists. Probably the best thing about my not very happy childhood was the fact that we got to travel a lot. I also remember going to a dinner show with my parents a few years earlier (1955) in Miami Beach where we saw a very young Sammy Davis, Jr. perform with his father and Will Mastin in the Will Mastin Trio. I remember my father speculating the the trio were not allowed to stay at hotels on Miami Beach. I guess I was 9 at the time, but I was a veteran of night club dinner shows because at an even earlier age I went to at least two showrooms in Las Vegas at hotels (Sands and Desert Inn) along the mostly vacant lot studded Las Vegas Blvd. It was just turning into The Strip at that time. Anyway, I am getting far off topic. Point being, Miami and Miami Beach had a long history of racial segregation and adherence to Jim Crow laws. Old school southern white law enforcement still held sway in the region until probably the 1980s.

I love history and I love personal experiences of history. There is nothing better. Thank You.

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

its not irrelevant at all, its how the place was actually started. making it not really southern from jump street. but yeah lol, you could just write anything off as eventually unconnected to anything, but thats neither true nor fun.

It's not really about the person who is regarded as the founder of the city, but about the people who who contributed to its culture early on and in important successive periods. After all, Chicago was founded by a Black Haitian but no one would mistake it for a Caribbean city.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by austlar1

I have my own civil rights era segregation memory involving Miami Beach dating from the summer of 1957. I was 11 years old and a visitor to Miami Beach along with my sister and my parents. We were a Jewish family from Texas. Anyway, we were staying at the then brand-new Americana Hotel in Bar Harbor (northern end of Miami Beach). While we were there, Columbia Records held their annual distributors convention at the hotel. Columbia had lined up a star-studded array of their recording artists to perform live for the distributors in the hotel's Bal Masque supper club. Johnny Mathis was the label's hottest new recording artist, and he was staying in rooms at the Americana in spite of the fact that hotels in Miami were still officially segregated in 1957. Columbia Records held a lot of sway (I am guessing) with the Tisch family, the owners of the hotel. Anyway, one afternoon I was poolside with my family when a very nervous (it was obvious to this 11 year old that I might be witnessing a bit of history) Johnny Mathis arrived at the pool with a small entourage of record industry types. Mathis was wearing bathing trunks and settled into a lounge chair by the pool. Others in his party jumped into the pool. Soon they were encouraging Mathis to join them in the pool. Mathis was clearly unsettled by the invitation and seemed very reluctant to get in the pool. Keep in mind, he was the biggest recording star of the year. After a great deal of encouragement and reassurances, Mathis finally jumped into the pool for a quick swim. After emerging from the pool, he almost immediately left the pool area and went inside the hotel. I always remembered that moment, as it seemed to signify something important. By the way, my parents managed to get me and my sister into the supper club to watch the big show which featured Mathis and a dozen or more other Columbia recording artists. Probably the best thing about my not very happy childhood was the fact that we got to travel a lot. I also remember going to a dinner show with my parents a few years earlier (1955) in Miami Beach where we saw a very young Sammy Davis, Jr. perform with his father and Will Mastin in the Will Mastin Trio. I remember my father speculating the the trio were not allowed to stay at hotels on Miami Beach. I guess I was 9 at the time, but I was a veteran of night club dinner shows because, at an even earlier age, I went to at least two dinnertime (early) shows in Las Vegas at hotels (Sands and Desert Inn) along the mostly vacant-lot-studded Las Vegas Blvd. It was just turning into The Strip at that time. Anyway, I am getting far off topic. Point being, Miami and Miami Beach had a long history of racial segregation and adherence to Jim Crow laws. Old school southern white law enforcement still held sway in the region until probably the 1980s.

Cool story! Seems like a scene in a movie