Southern cities with a "big city" feel?

[Crawford]

Baltimore feels more Southern than Miami. Hell, in many ways Detroit feels more Southern than Miami. Working class white areas in SE Michigan are heavily Appalachian, and blacks are all from the Deep South. South Florida blacks are from the West Indies, like those in Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx and Boston. So no.

South Florida is Latin American and NY-NJ-CT tri-state, just relocated. The newscasters all have NY and Cuban accents, the vibe is Long Island-Havana mashup. Jews, Italians, Caribbeans, cranky retirees, tax cheats, bad drivers, good pizza and pastelitos.

[BEER]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

More southern culture exists in Miami than in any "northern" city. It's a melting pot for sure, but if Miami isn't southern, New York isn't northern.

If Miami isn't in the South, then Vancouver isn't in Canada and hasn't been over the last 60 years or so. It's so different from Ottawa and Quebec City.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by pj3000

It's southern, but not "Southern". Miami is Caribbean.

And I don't know about your claim... northern cities are full of Black culture... from the South.

Miami's Southern American culture didn't exist at its founding... since it wasn't even founded until almost 1900 (by people from Cleveland), and remained a rather small settlement of mainly northerners, Bahamians, and American Blacks until the 1920s. It was part of Florida and thus had a racist, Jim Crow "Southern" couple decades, but by the 1950s, that pretty much all changed.

Actually, just bounced this off of someone I know who lived in Miami for a few years. She currently lives in Atlanta and has also lived in Mississippi. She was born in L.A. and grew up mostly in Detroit. She said that Miami definitely has a lot of southern elements, but it is not always obvious because it is very segregated. So, you can live in a bubble that is completely Latin/Cuban, or very New York Jewish, and not interact much with the strong southern elements that also exists there. But it's there for sure.

[pj3000]

I've never heard NY accents on Miami news. In fact, when I lived in NY, I don't recall NY newscasters having NY accents...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I've never heard NY accents on Miami news. In fact, when I lived in NY, I don't recall NY newscasters having NY accents...

I always thought the NYC expat population was more Broward/Palm Beach TBH.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Actually, just bounced this off of someone I know who lived in Miami for a few years. She currently lives in Atlanta and has also lived in Mississippi. She said that Miami definitely has a lot of southern elements, but it is not always obvious because it is very segregated. So, you can live in a bubble that is completely Latin/Cuban, or very New York Jewish, and not interact much with the strong southern elements that also exists there. But it's there for sure.

Yeah, I mean there's some areas to the north which have some white "southern-ish" vibe up in Broward County I guess... I wouldn't deny that. Cooper City, Plantation areas outside Fort Lauderdale, yeah I guess. It is still Florida, so there are plenty of transplants from within the more "Southern" parts of the state and from Georgia. The black population in the area is mainly a mix of southern and Caribbean, so there's that too.

And the southern shores area of Lake Okeechobee is very southern, but that really isn't in the Miami area. That's a whole different world that produces probably the best athletes in the world per capita.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I've never heard NY accents on Miami news. In fact, when I lived in NY, I don't recall NY newscasters having NY accents...

What?? I'm trying to think of a prominent NY newscaster who doesn't have a NY accent. Rosanna Scotto, Sal Marchiano, Darlene Rodriguez all sound the same as someone sitting on a stoop in the Bronx. I guess Liz Cho has a Midwest-sounding accent.

And when I'm in South Florida, and turn on local news, it's always some Jewish/Italian/Carribean newscaster who sounds straight outta Five Towns.

And when I say "NY accent" I don't mean the exaggerated Fran Drescher or Joe Pesci acting bits. No one talks like that. Real NY accents, how people actually talk.

[BEER]

https://goo.gl/maps/1zxLT7wwmANkamhDA

Not in the South?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

What?? I'm trying to think of a prominent NY newscaster who doesn't have a NY accent. Rosanna Scotto, Sal Marchiano, Darlene Rodriguez all sound the same as someone sitting on a stoop in the Bronx. I guess Liz Cho has a Midwest-sounding accent.

And when I'm in South Florida, and turn on local news, it's always some Jewish/Italian/Carribean newscaster who sounds straight outta Five Towns.

And when I say "NY accent" I don't mean the exaggerated Fran Drescher or Joe Pesci acting bits. No one talks like that. Real NY accents, how people actually talk.

Yeah, I know you're not suggesting the over-the-top caricature accents.

Maybe I just don't notice it. Maybe I hear a little in the "a's" pronunciations from Steve Adubato or someone... but I never got anything from Ernie Anastos (is he still on?).

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by BEER

https://goo.gl/maps/1zxLT7wwmANkamhDA

Not in the South?

In the very far South.

That's just blight. You could find that same scene with different trees pretty much anywhere in the rustbelt.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by BEER

Just like the North, the South is a diverse place. It doesn't mean that Miami is not part of the South.

All of these cities are culturally and historically different from each other and they're all considered The South. Tampa doesn't feel like Atlanta, Atlanta doesn't feel like Richmond, Houston doesn't feel like Dallas, Nashville doesn't feel like Miami, Miami doesn't feel like Raleigh. Raleigh doesn't feel like New Orleans. New Orleans doesn't feel like Roanoke. Roanoke doesn't feel like Savannah. Savannah doesn't feel like Memphis. Memphis doesn't feel like Norfolk.

Those other cities you mentioned still feel southern and identify with their southern roots in their own way. Miami doesn't. It's like an exclave of the north deep in Florida..which otherwise is fairly southern; Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Orlando, Pensacola and even the Tampa Bay area (which is over run with upstate New Yorkers)

[edale]

Originally Posted by Crawford

South Florida is Latin American and NY-NJ-CT tri-state, just relocated. The newscasters all have NY and Cuban accents, the vibe is Long Island-Havana mashup. Jews, Italians, Caribbeans, cranky retirees, tax cheats, bad drivers, good pizza and pastelitos.

Lol I expressed almost this exact sentiment, and pj3000 jumped down my throat and said my view of South Florida is from the 1970s.

[LAsam]

If I'm being honest, of the big southern cities I've visited, none of them have the conventional feel of a big northeastern city. That's not to say they are lesser, just different. I've never been to Atlanta or Houston, so I can't opine on those cities, but I have been to Miami, New Orleans, Dallas, Memphis, and Nashville with the last few years. One common element missing from these cities that you find in the northeast is robust public transit. Another difference is that living in the urban cores of these cities if more of a novelty, rather than something expected. I will say that the southern cities I visited were all trending towards better public transit, and increased urban living, but they still have a ways to go.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I always thought the NYC expat population was more Broward/Palm Beach TBH.

Yeah, and I would say that's definitely more true in present day, as far as Broward goes. Miami Beach used to be THE prime spot for NYC-area vacationers, snowbirds, and retirees. Miami proper also had plenty of NYC-area transplants, but that was a long time ago now, and there are a couple generations of kids born and raised in Miami/South Florida to those NYC transplants. They're not New Yorkers.

As Miami and Dade County became more Cuban-dominated and became more Hispanic and black, and with the drug trade and unrest of the 1980s, you started to see Broward County becoming more popular for white people... and much of that northeastern-originating population moved there in the 80s and 90s. Palm Beach County with West Palm Beach and Boca Raton already had that white NYC, and northeastern in general, expat population. Miami still certainly has plenty of people from NYC area, but it's not like it was. I think people have this notion that Miami/Miami Beach is somehow still like the Golden Girls or something.

Originally Posted by JManc

Those other cities you mentioned still feel southern and identify with their southern roots in their own way. Miami doesn't. It's like an exclave of the north deep in Florida..which otherwise is fairly southern; Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Orlando, Pensacola and even the Tampa Bay area (which is over run with upstate New Yorkers)

Yeah, they were all part of the South... pre-Confederacy, during the Confederacy, and post-Confederacy.

Miami barely even existed until half a century later. That, right there, should tell you something about Miami's connection to Southern culture.

And yeah, the whole Tampa Bay area on down to Naples seems to be all people from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by JAYNYC

Based on this statement alone, it would be unlikely that you would have an informed perspective on the culture or "feel" of big southern cities.

I can appreciate that. I'd like to visit Atlanta and Houston, but the opportunity hasn't come up for business travel, I don't have family in those cities, and they aren't particularly touristy. My opinions on Atlanta and Houston are purely based on what I've seen in photo and discussion threads on SSP. Based on SSP content, I would be very surprised if Atlanta or Houston were to remind me of NYC, Philly, Boston, or Chicago, when I eventually do visit. Again, that's not to say they are lesser in any way. I think variety is good... wouldn't want every city to be the same... that would be boring!

[Buckeye Native 001]

From my brief time there (including nightmare drives on I-95 to/from Fort Lauderdale), Miami definitely has some of the east coast influence, but also a lot of Caribbean as well, if that makes any sense? I've been to Charleston SC, Houston, and Charlotte (still need to make it to Atlanta some day). Those are southern. Miami/South Florida isn't.

[Segun]

The funny thing is, the country parts of Miami are hardcore country and Southern, like cooking stew on the porch, playing dominoes, roosters running around country...

That southern accent you find among Black people in Miami will kill any notion that Miami ain't the South. Don't have me break out the Trick Daddy!

[BG918]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

From my brief time there (including nightmare drives on I-95 to/from Fort Lauderdale), Miami definitely has some of the east coast influence, but also a lot of Caribbean as well, if that makes any sense? I've been to Charleston SC, Houston, and Charlotte (still need to make it to Atlanta some day). Those are southern. Miami/South Florida isn't.

Charleston has some Caribbean influence as well. The entire Low Country from Savannah up to Charleston and the Outer Banks along the coast is kind of a unique blend of Southern culture mixed with the colonial architecture of Boston/New England but with Caribbean influence in the pastel colors, big front porches and tropical landscaping.

[UrbanImpact]

We don't consider ourselves to be Southern in South Florida. You don't hear the accent until you +/- pass Orlando. I would say the accent here in Broward County is combination New York/Latin/Neutral accent.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Segun

The funny thing is, the country parts of Miami are hardcore country and Southern, like cooking stew on the porch, playing dominoes, roosters running around country...

That southern accent you find among Black people in Miami will kill any notion that Miami ain't the South. Don't have me break out the Trick Daddy!

Trick Daddy! Southern Black culture is most definitely present in Miami, and I think it's the most Southern thing remaining about Miami. But... I definitely wouldn't say that Miami's culture overall is strongly characterized by it... at least not enough to claim that Miami is southern like Memphis or Laurel or Macon or Birmingham is southern.