PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[PhilliesPhan]

I was riding the El the other day, when I noticed a new construction home with a roof deck that seemed insignificant until I took a second glance: the location was D and Cambria Streets! I saw it while looking north from the Somerset stop. I’m pretty sure that’s a first for the area.

It will be fascinating to see what something like that will rent (I doubt that it’s a for sale product, as D and Cambria would be a hard sell for even the most hardened of native Philadelphians like myself) at, as well as if others will follow. Kensington Avenue beyond the Lehigh Viaduct is rougher than it was pre-pandemic, but everything surrounding Kensington is booming.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

Yeah, look in atlas. In the 2020 aerial view I'm seeing strings of freight cars on the tracks just south of there.

https://atlas.phila.gov/FRANKFORD%20...20AVE/property

Now wait a minute with that Satellite imagery you just linked, there is a LOT of unused space up there, at one point there is only one track for a good amount of time.

I assume there were more tracks connecting to many businesses 70 years ago.

The amount of ROW up there looks like it could handle an EL branch off to serve that area.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Now wait a minute with that Satellite imagery you just linked, there is a LOT of unused space up there, at one point there is only one track for a good amount of time.

I assume there were more tracks connecting to many businesses 70 years ago.

The amount of ROW up there looks like it could handle an EL branch off to serve that area.

If the El wasn’t one of the worst pieces of infrastructure we have in the city I’d agree with you.

The BSL on the other hand…

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

If the El wasn’t one of the worst pieces of infrastructure we have in the city I’d agree with you.

The BSL on the other hand…

I beg to differ the EL may have more issues on it, however more septa police & portals will fix that quick.

The EL is the reason why Fishtown & Kensington are growing at 150% compared to other areas, the transportation and fact that it gives those areas a different feel.

Same for the BSL.

I know you know that though.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

I beg to differ the EL may have more issues on it, however more septa police & portals will fix that quick.

The EL is the reason why Fishtown & Kensington are growing at 150% compared to other areas, the transportation and fact that it gives those areas a different feel.

Same for the BSL.

I know you know that though.

None of the crime is the El's fault. I'm referring to its construction.

You can't get around the fact that the El is not standard track gauge (PA Trolley Gauge vs. Standard), has shitty loading gauges (short and narrow clearances), and despite all of this, operates almost at capacity. This isn't even considering the constant equipment troubles that SEPTA has on the line (The M-4s are some of the worst subway stock in America at the moment).

The BSL on the other hand is standard gauge, has wide loading gauges, dedicated express tracks north of Locust, 70 mph speed limits, no water crossings, and best of all, room to expand.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

None of the crime is the El's fault. I'm referring to its construction.

You can't get around the fact that the El is not standard track gauge (PA Trolley Gauge vs. Standard), has shitty loading gauges (short and narrow clearances), and despite all of this, operates almost at capacity. This isn't even considering the constant equipment troubles that SEPTA has on the line (The M-4s are some of the worst subway stock in America at the moment).

The BSL on the other hand is standard gauge, has wide loading gauges, dedicated express tracks north of Locust, 70 mph speed limits, no water crossings, and best of all, room to expand.

Yea the track gauge is an issue ive heard before, what's the possibility of the tracks being redone to match the BSL? Also what was the reason they used Trolley gauge in the past?

And how fast does the EL go? It seems like it goes pretty fast when Im in Frankford, at least 55 MPH.

The next best thing would be a reconstruction for the EL increasing service or the easier option would be bigger & newer Train cars.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Yea the track gauge is an issue ive heard before, what's the possibility of the tracks being redone to match the BSL? Also what was the reason they used Trolley gauge in the past?

And how fast does the EL go? It seems like it goes pretty fast when Im in Frankford, at least 55 MPH.

The next best thing would be a reconstruction for the EL increasing service or the easier option would be bigger & newer Train cars.

The tracks will not be regauged in our lifetimes. It is a massive project that will not be justifiable until many decades from now when the production of railcars is super streamlined and standardized (thus requiring the switch). The reason it is 5'2.25" is because the PRT built its trolleys to that gauge, and it helped to have the same gauge for the El. The light rail in Pittsburgh is the same gauge.

The El's top speed is 50 mph between 15th and 30th. Can't do much for top speeds through downtown when you have half a dozen stops (15th, 13th, 11th, 8th, 5th, and 2nd) in very short succession. SEPTA has for years been trying to lengthen all of the El platforms to accomodate 8 car trains, but there are not currently enough M-4 cars to run said 8 car trains at all times. SEPTA is also evaluating their replacement, which still won't be getting here until the 2030s.

You can't run a spur off of the El because it's already nearly at capacity. Headways can't be made much shorter than 2 minutes (which is what they theoretically are at peak times) and trains are still crowded. How they thought they could build a Woodland Avenue spur in the 1910's when the El had higher ridership is a mystery to me.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

None of the crime is the El's fault. I'm referring to its construction.

You can't get around the fact that the El is not standard track gauge (PA Trolley Gauge vs. Standard), has shitty loading gauges (short and narrow clearances), and despite all of this, operates almost at capacity. This isn't even considering the constant equipment troubles that SEPTA has on the line (The M-4s are some of the worst subway stock in America at the moment).

The BSL on the other hand is standard gauge, has wide loading gauges, dedicated express tracks north of Locust, 70 mph speed limits, no water crossings, and best of all, room to expand.

Spot on.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

The tracks will not be regauged in our lifetimes. It is a massive project that will not be justifiable until many decades from now when the production of railcars is super streamlined and standardized (thus requiring the switch). The reason it is 5'2.25" is because the PRT built its trolleys to that gauge, and it helped to have the same gauge for the El. The light rail in Pittsburgh is the same gauge.

The El's top speed is 50 mph between 15th and 30th. Can't do much for top speeds through downtown when you have half a dozen stops (15th, 13th, 11th, 8th, 5th, and 2nd) in very short succession. SEPTA has for years been trying to lengthen all of the El platforms to accomodate 8 car trains, but there are not currently enough M-4 cars to run said 8 car trains at all times. SEPTA is also evaluating their replacement, which still won't be getting here until the 2030s.

You can't run a spur off of the El because it's already nearly at capacity. Headways can't be made much shorter than 2 minutes (which is what they theoretically are at peak times) and trains are still crowded. How they thought they could build a Woodland Avenue spur in the 1910's when the El had higher ridership is a mystery to me.

Would it really be that difficult to regauge the EL if they just redid the portion from 49th to 69th in the early 2000’s? Im sure im about to simplify this but during that process couldn’t they just put the tracks on the same gauge as the BSL while they were redoing that portion for example? & then do the rest down the line all the way up to frankford?


Yea the EL has more stops in a shorter distance then the BSL to the top speed makes sense & woah 2030?? I thought the new cars were gonna be here soon? Or were those the cars that had the cracks in them that were made in the US??

It’s a shame because looking at the Wiki the pervious two train sets we had before the current were made by BUDD CO. Which is a shame that business shuttered, my grandfather worked there back in the day.

Woah a Woodland ave extension that would have changed that whole area, I was just reading on the wikipedia that SEPTA was looking at an extension to Rosevelt/ Busselton which makes perfect sense.

I promise if I make it to Jeff Bezos money or even half of it I would give Septa 20 Billion just to get on track to catch up on backlog, extend the El & BSL & build a Roosevelt BLVD Subway or elevated line.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Would it really be that difficult to regauge the EL if they just redid the portion from 49th to 69th in the early 2000’s? Im sure im about to simplify this but during that process couldn’t they just put the tracks on the same gauge as the BSL while they were redoing that portion for example? & then do the rest down the line all the way up to frankford? .

It’s not that simple.

Every mile of El trackage west of Millbourne is what is called “direct fixation.” This means that the rails are held in by clips and tie plates, which are in turn held in by fasteners directly into the concrete structure. This is slightly different in some underground sections, where you have wooden ties laid in insets in the roadbed that are in turn fixed in place. Re-gauging the entire line to 4’8.5” from 5’2.25” would require tearing up all of this concrete and pouring completely new plinths the entire length of the El. This is expensive and incredibly difficult to justify.

They didn’t re-gauge it in the early 2000s when the section from 46th westward was redone because that would have also required doing the rest of the line, which SEPTA did not have the money for (or really, the care for).

Re-gauging the track also doesn’t account for what is honestly the bigger problem: the loading gauge. For those uninformed, the loading gauge refers to the clearances along the line that restrict car dimensions (platforms, ceilings, etc). The cut-and-cover method used to construct the line downtown from 24th to 2nd resulted in its incredibly low ceilings. There’s only like 3 feet between the top of Market and the ceiling of the El in some sections. In addition, the platforms are rather close to the tracks, which is no doubt related to the non-standard track gauge the El uses.

Compare this again to the Broad Street Line and Ridge Spur. These were built after the El in the 1920s. By then, they had learned some lessons on subway construction, and built the line with wide and tall loading gauges. This is why the BSL (and, consequentially, PATCO) feel so much roomier than the El.

[Justin7]

Defunct South Philly refinery is rebranded as The Bellwether District

HRP, the company formerly known as Hilco Redevelopment Partners, on Monday unveiled a new name for the commercial real estate venture it plans to build on the site of the shuttered South Philadelphia refinery: The Bellwether District.

[...]

https://www.inquirer.com/business/ph...-20211025.html

Very large images:

[Urbanthusiat]

^^Love it. Really hope it gets built out like that.

[Vince_]

I know it's just a rendering but I'm seeing 2-3 new bridges over the Schuylkill including what I think is 67th Street which would be really cool to better connect Southwest Philly to South Philly.

[mcgrath618]

Wow. That looks fantastic.

While we’re on the topic of rapid transit… this area is kind of a desert…
Broad Street Line Spur when?

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Wow. That looks fantastic.

While we’re on the topic of rapid transit… this area is kind of a desert…
Broad Street Line Spur when?

Right after we build the American Commerce Center.

[bigfish]

Not sure where the love for these rendering are coming from. So much parking, it looks like a suburban office park, albeit a nice one. Not to mention that the skyline is from like 2008. 2116 Chestnut isn't even there and I believe that was completed in 2011.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It’s not that simple.

Every mile of El trackage west of Millbourne is what is called “direct fixation.” This means that the rails are held in by clips and tie plates, which are in turn held in by fasteners directly into the concrete structure. This is slightly different in some underground sections, where you have wooden ties laid in insets in the roadbed that are in turn fixed in place. Re-gauging the entire line to 4’8.5” from 5’2.25” would require tearing up all of this concrete and pouring completely new plinths the entire length of the El. This is expensive and incredibly difficult to justify.

They didn’t re-gauge it in the early 2000s when the section from 46th westward was redone because that would have also required doing the rest of the line, which SEPTA did not have the money for (or really, the care for).

Re-gauging the track also doesn’t account for what is honestly the bigger problem: the loading gauge. For those uninformed, the loading gauge refers to the clearances along the line that restrict car dimensions (platforms, ceilings, etc). The cut-and-cover method used to construct the line downtown from 24th to 2nd resulted in its incredibly low ceilings. There’s only like 3 feet between the top of Market and the ceiling of the El in some sections. In addition, the platforms are rather close to the tracks, which is no doubt related to the non-standard track gauge the El uses.

Compare this again to the Broad Street Line and Ridge Spur. These were built after the El in the 1920s. By then, they had learned some lessons on subway construction, and built the line with wide and tall loading gauges. This is why the BSL (and, consequentially, PATCO) feel so much roomier than the El.

This explains why the BSL operates a little better than the EL. Amazing how much you can learn in only a couple years & improve.

I see the whole system would have to be redone, at that point I guess you might as well put the EL underground as well the whole length through.

Hopefully we can see some good improvements on the EL in the next 5-10 years & SEPTAS funding issue is taken care of for 100+ years.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Justin7

https://www.inquirer.com/business/ph...-20211025.html

Very large images:

Awesome and reassuring to see this moving forward at a brisk pace. While the plan isn't architecturally groundbreaking, it will be a much better entry into the city from from the South.

Originally Posted by bigfish

Not sure where the love for these rendering are coming from. So much parking, it looks like a suburban office park, albeit a nice one. Not to mention that the skyline is from like 2008. 2116 Chestnut isn't even there and I believe that was completed in 2011.

I still view it as a HUGE improvement. In a dream world I would love to see a Navy Yard 2.0, but the market cannot sustain that type of project (right now), it would compete with U City and the Navy Yard rather than compliment. But maybe Hilco will pivot their plans toward more of that if Philadelphia keeps booming in the 2020s. Also great if Philadelphia becomes the top logistics hub on the East Coast, similar to Chicago in the Midwest. The future is Life Sciences and logistics, both of which Philadelphia is making great headway.

And the dated skyline image is nothing new, but annoying. The NY Times or LA Times produced one of their typical backhanded complimentary Philadelphia articles a year or 2 ago and the skyline pic was legit 2008 right after Comcast 1 was completed. I was like really... Imagine writing a piece about New York with a half completed World Trade Center as the headline pic. Would never happen...

[bigfish]

You're right. I am actually really happy about the project overall and think it will be a great workforce development opportunity for many folks in S and SW to make more than minimum wage. I think I am mostly annoyed at the extremely dated skyline when I think about it.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Vince_

I know it's just a rendering but I'm seeing 2-3 new bridges over the Schuylkill including what I think is 67th Street which would be really cool to better connect Southwest Philly to South Philly.

Only new bridge I'm seeing is at 58th.