Modular/Homeless Housing in Expensive Neighborhoods?

[GenWhy?]

Misher, it's also important to separate drug use and mental health with homelessness. Lots of social housing providers for instance are strict on drug use in their building, which leads to folks using in the street. Is the issue then social housing, homelessness, or drug use? Then, with that in mind, which issues are not being address properly as a society? Ways to adjust and improve. The usual root issue is homelessness in the first place and supports and housing... social services and institutions that help disenfranchised minorities, for instance.


Drug use and issues around social housing are also not directly tied to the fact that social housing exists in that area, but that the presence of the two happen to be in the same area. Drug use outside a building does not mean the residents of that building are all in that boat. So then if the issue is needles and drug use, then wouldn't it be more prudent and efficient to pursue policies and solutions with the City, province, feds, to deal with that issue? As we've noted social housing exists outside the DTES and is unknown many times. Even projects in the DTES I've been in I would not really guess its services or residents. It really depends on the non-profit running it. SROs are a completely different conversation.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by rofina

Is there no limit to generosity?

How many chances do you give someone?

Do you not finally take away some freedom if a person is completely unwilling to take responsibility and change but expects endless support?

Its fine and dramatic to say "no lesser citizen in this country" but that's not really true is it?

How can the persons supporting this system of welfare not want to claim some sort of recognition? It is literally the labour and productivity of one group used to shelter and feed another, nothing inherently wrong with this, but its certainly true.

And to make this abundantly clear - I am absolutely not saying we should somehow cut all social support, but there is a difference between a helping hand and lifelong support.

These are tough questions. In a broader context I think you need to look at what the consequences of doing nothing, or reducing support are to communities. As someone who's growing more conservative as I age, I still think I understand that some people are just not capable of functioning independently, and some people have significant issues that compel them into destructive, antisocial or otherwise difficult behavior, and there's not really anything you can do to actually stop that. The best method is to try & minimize their self destructive behaviors and find ways to mitigate their impact on the communities in which they live. Otherwise you have that spiral of disorder and despair that drives away other people and creates this vacuum of chaos that draws others in.

Whenever I am in Vancouver I am always quite astounded at how benign or generally well behaved the street population is. Here in Edmonton the street population is a lot more unstable, violent and antisocial. We have major problems daily with the downtown street entrenched population, that frequently escalates into random violence. Edmonton and the province have really failed to take any measurable steps to mitigate this and they've created some very unsafe areas by corralling that population into one single area. I strongly believe that one of the best ways to mitigate the problems for everyone, street people and regular residents alike is to disperse the population into manageable pockets. In a community with equilibrium the problems are a lot more manageable than if they are concentrated. So putting social housing and even shelter beds in better off communities, while distasteful to some, is key to managing that population

[misher]

Originally Posted by rofina

Is there no limit to generosity?

How many chances do you give someone?

Do you not finally take away some freedom if a person is completely unwilling to take responsibility and change but expects endless support?

Its fine and dramatic to say "no lesser citizen in this country" but that's not really true is it?

How can the persons supporting this system of welfare not want to claim some sort of recognition? It is literally the labour and productivity of one group used to shelter and feed another, nothing inherently wrong with this, but its certainly true.

And to make this abundantly clear - I am absolutely not saying we should somehow cut all social support, but there is a difference between a helping hand and lifelong support.

(much of the below was too inflammatory and off topic so I edited it)
Agreed. The helping hand is meant to get people back on their feet and is meant for unemployment and misfortune. We are a capitalist nation as the below shows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...onomic_freedom https://www.quora.com/Is-Canada-a-ca...Why-or-why-not(something most forget) the idea is if we spend this much helping people they will repay it with taxes in the long run an argument no one can debate if it works.

I feel that the people that replied to me are ignoring most of what I said. Just because you walked by a place and you were ok doesn't give you the right to say I am wrong and that people should be ok with living nearby. Try owning a house beside the place and having people shoot up, leaving their needles there, and shit on your lawn/front door. Try having your kids walk by it everyday to school. Get off your high horse and clean up some human shit and needles. Have someone shit on your front door every week. Then come back to me and say its ok. Its an awful & dangerous situation and we should not be spreading it to the rest of the city.

[Jalapeño Chips]

Originally Posted by misher

The reply between the two smilely faces is off topic and opinion based

Agreed. The helping hand is meant to get people back on their feet and is meant for unemployment and misfortune. We are a capitalist nation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...onomic_freedom https://www.quora.com/Is-Canada-a-ca...Why-or-why-not(something most forget) the idea is if we spend this much helping people they will repay it with taxes in the long run. Giving more than that should be the jobs of religions and charities, not the government. The government should not have what can be termed "mandatory charity taxes" that force people to give to charitable arms of the government (not only is this against individual freedom, but its inefficient as the government is almost always less efficient than the private sector).

If you feel that Communism or Socialism suits you better you are welcome to move to Venezuela or Cuba, nations that have followed what you are preaching. You can see how your focus on socialism worked out. In the end nations that have turned from capitalism to communism or socialism usually ended up not doing so well yet people continue to push for thing. I get the feeling many must have slept during their highschool history lessons.

Anyway I feel that the people that replied to me are ignoring most of what I said. Just because you walked by a place and you were ok doesn't give you the right to say I am wrong. Try owning a house beside the place and having people shoot up, leaving their needles there, and shit on your lawn/front door. Try having your kids walk by it everyday to school. Get off your high horse and clean up some human shit and needles. Have someone shit on your front door every week. Then come back to me and say its ok. Its an awful & dangerous situation and we should not be spreading it to the rest of the city.

What a bunch of idiotic bullshit. Enough of the personal attacks. I've lived in this country my whole life and done more than my fair share. I am a capitalist, I own a business, I've payed lots of taxes, but I also care lots about the bigger issues in this city and country. Our government is to serve all Canadians, it is their obligation to help. Calling people a communist or socialist for caring and defending the poor is pathetic, and quite frankly, petty and fucking stupid. I don't care who's shit on your door, not my problem. Don't like it? Move. You're the one that has an issue with all the needles, so go clean it up.

[misher]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Misher, it's also important to separate drug use and mental health with homelessness. Lots of social housing providers for instance are strict on drug use in their building, which leads to folks using in the street. Is the issue then social housing, homelessness, or drug use? Then, with that in mind, which issues are not being address properly as a society? Ways to adjust and improve. The usual root issue is homelessness in the first place and supports and housing... social services and institutions that help disenfranchised minorities, for instance.


Drug use and issues around social housing are also not directly tied to the fact that social housing exists in that area, but that the presence of the two happen to be in the same area. Drug use outside a building does not mean the residents of that building are all in that boat. So then if the issue is needles and drug use, then wouldn't it be more prudent and efficient to pursue policies and solutions with the City, province, feds, to deal with that issue? As we've noted social housing exists outside the DTES and is unknown many times. Even projects in the DTES I've been in I would not really guess its services or residents. It really depends on the non-profit running it. SROs are a completely different conversation.

I agree with much of what you said here

[Jalapeño Chips]

Originally Posted by rofina

Is there no limit to generosity?

How many chances do you give someone?

Do you not finally take away some freedom if a person is completely unwilling to take responsibility and change but expects endless support?

Its fine and dramatic to say "no lesser citizen in this country" but that's not really true is it?

How can the persons supporting this system of welfare not want to claim some sort of recognition? It is literally the labour and productivity of one group used to shelter and feed another, nothing inherently wrong with this, but its certainly true.

And to make this abundantly clear - I am absolutely not saying we should somehow cut all social support, but there is a difference between a helping hand and lifelong support.

I don't disagree with what you say in principle. In the past I think it was mostly that in some, perhaps many cases the situation was one of laziness and abuse of the welfare system. It continues today for sure, and I have no issues with limits on that. But welfare rates are so low, that I don't see it being a reliable way to survive in this day and age.

What I am talking about, and what I see mostly today is a whole new level of craziness that is mostly due to mental health issues, and in those cases, no, I personally don't believe that there is no other way other than providing the help. It's a downward spiral otherwise that will only get worse and worse.

I have friends that are doctors and nurses and front line support workers, and the horror stories are just so brutal. They deal with people convulsively dying on a daily basis, their own mental health starts taking a toll, and the cost to society as a whole (including petty crime and health care, etc.) is enormous. I think it's time we treat it as a disease and get people of the streets. The cost in the long run will be less, and the optics of the city will be much better without the crazy on the street.

[Sin_City]

Originally Posted by misher

Anyone noticed that the trend is to house our homeless or build services for them in the most expensive neighborhoods?

Like 7300 Elmbridge Wy in Richmond? The area is surrounded with high-priced condos. That story was making its rounds in the Richmonds Changing Neighborhood and Richmond News page on Facebook. I never knew what a NIMBY was until I was accused of being one.

[GenWhy?]

Technically that's Richmond's "downtown". Wouldn't it seem wise to place Richmond's social housing in the core of the city adjacent or close to transit, grocery stores, jobs, city services?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by misher

I feel that the people that replied to me are ignoring most of what I said. Just because you walked by a place and you were ok doesn't give you the right to say I am wrong and that people should be ok with living nearby. Try owning a house beside the place and having people shoot up, leaving their needles there, and shit on your lawn/front door. Try having your kids walk by it everyday to school. Get off your high horse and clean up some human shit and needles. Have someone shit on your front door every week. Then come back to me and say its ok. Its an awful & dangerous situation and we should not be spreading it to the rest of the city.

This is building up a strawman argument just to knock it down. Temporary modular housing does not have any of these problems. Transition homes do not have these problems.

Temporary modular housing is in no way an "awful & dangerous situation". It's women fleeing domestic violence. It's teenagers aging out of foster care. It's seniors on fixed income who can no longer afford increasing rent. Tarring all of these people in need with a "they'll shit on your doorstep" argument is horrible.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Jalapeño Chips

I don't disagree with what you say in principle. In the past I think it was mostly that in some, perhaps many cases the situation was one of laziness and abuse of the welfare system. It continues today for sure, and I have no issues with limits on that. But welfare rates are so low, that I don't see it being a reliable way to survive in this day and age.

What I am talking about, and what I see mostly today is a whole new level of craziness that is mostly due to mental health issues, and in those cases, no, I personally don't believe that there is no other way other than providing the help. It's a downward spiral otherwise that will only get worse and worse.

I have friends that are doctors and nurses and front line support workers, and the horror stories are just so brutal. They deal with people convulsively dying on a daily basis, their own mental health starts taking a toll, and the cost to society as a whole (including petty crime and health care, etc.) is enormous. I think it's time we treat it as a disease and get people of the streets. The cost in the long run will be less, and the optics of the city will be much better without the crazy on the street.

I think were generally on the same page.

I have argued for long that a huge part of the issue is that poverty turned into a business, I absolutely abhor that.

"Operation Phoenix" series written by the Province news paper some years ago discovered the DTES swallows 1million dollars a day, every day, 365.

No one can tell me that long term, spending even a billion+ on a new mental health and long term recovery facility would not be a better option for all involved.

I do think, as much as I fundamentally dislike it, that some limitation on freedom would need to be placed and many of the serious mental health patients would need to be placed in care regardless of their willingness to do so.

Other than above I don't see a reasonable way to repair this. Psychologically these folks have been locked into the same pattern for years or decades, and frankly literally may not be capable of self care.

A roof overhead and some food absolutely go a long way, but will not solve this crisis alone.

[WoodlandCritter]

Originally Posted by Jalapeño Chips

This is a bunch of hate filled B.S. Most of the homeless were born and raised in Canada, true Canadian citizens like the rest of us, they can be, and will be, in any neighbourhood in the city. THERE IS NO LESSER CITIZEN IN THIS COUNTRY.

It's called CANADIAN VALUES.

Get that??? Understand???

There is a country across the Pacific.ocean that sometimes houses their homeless in cages. You might like living there.

Chill

[misher]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Technically that's Richmond's "downtown". Wouldn't it seem wise to place Richmond's social housing in the core of the city adjacent or close to transit, grocery stores, jobs, city services?

Yeah that project made me laugh, it is beside a home hardware store and a ton of towers that are 99% chinese. Definitely a great location

Btw I agree with so much of what was said these past few messages. Lets take away some rights and force these people to get better. Lets open some institutions (I'm going to say lets pick some dying town that lost its coal mine or something for the location since theres lots of labour and cheap construction/housing) and build a place where we can have a rehabilitation centre or long-term housing if they cannot get better. From what I've heard each overdose case costs anywhere from 5 to 6 digits or more.

As for Jalapeno....

I don't care who's shit on your door, not my problem. Don't like it? Move. You're the one that has an issue with all the needles, so go clean it up.

this attitude is what makes you a hypocrite. Your ok forcing this on others but not on yourself. And btw your a socialist if you keep pushing socialist policies. Which is why I said look at the world and its history and you'll see that 90% of the time socialism results in failure not just for those being helped but for the entire population.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by rofina

Is there no limit to generosity?

How many chances do you give someone?

Do you not finally take away some freedom if a person is completely unwilling to take responsibility and change but expects endless support?

Its fine and dramatic to say "no lesser citizen in this country" but that's not really true is it?

How can the persons supporting this system of welfare not want to claim some sort of recognition? It is literally the labour and productivity of one group used to shelter and feed another, nothing inherently wrong with this, but its certainly true.

And to make this abundantly clear - I am absolutely not saying we should somehow cut all social support, but there is a difference between a helping hand and lifelong support.

Exactly. You can't spoil a person to become successful. Sometimes sticks instead of carrots need to be used for motivation. I think we've already spent billions worth of carrots and all to no avail. The problem is expanding, drug/alcohol use is becoming worse, and more people are dropping dead. Something is wrong with the system and it needs to be reviewed. I don't get how people can be so obstinate about supporting the expansion the current system especially since it is evident that it isn't really working at all. It only produces more entitled individuals that think that by being irresponsible for themselves is OK as there is always a safety net cast by society for them to land on.

[Jalapeño Chips]

Originally Posted by WoodlandCritter

Chill

Nope, never gonna happen.

[Jalapeño Chips]

Originally Posted by misher

Yeah that project made me laugh, it is beside a home hardware store and a ton of towers that are 99% chinese. Definitely a great location

Btw I agree with so much of what was said these past few messages. Lets take away some rights and force these people to get better. Lets open some institutions (I'm going to say lets pick some dying town that lost its coal mine or something for the location since theres lots of labour and cheap construction/housing) and build a place where we can have a rehabilitation centre or long-term housing if they cannot get better. From what I've heard each overdose case costs anywhere from 5 to 6 digits or more.

As for Jalapeno.... this attitude is what makes you a hypocrite. Your ok forcing this on others but not on yourself. And btw your a socialist if you keep pushing socialist policies. Which is why I said look at the world and its history and you'll see that 90% of the time socialism results in failure not just for those being helped but for the entire population.

Again, stop with the name calling.

No one is forcing anybody to do anything, so stop talking like a fool. You're the one that has an issue with poverty, not me. Like I said, don't like it? Move.

What socialist policies am I pushing for? Modular housing? Help for the poor?

And while still off topic, Socialism has failed? You mean the 90% of the time like in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, Poland, Austria, and most of Europe, and Australia, New Zealand and dare I say it, Canada? Wow, thanks for the history lesson.

[Jalapeño Chips]

Originally Posted by rofina

I think were generally on the same page.

I have argued for long that a huge part of the issue is that poverty turned into a business, I absolutely abhor that.

"Operation Phoenix" series written by the Province news paper some years ago discovered the DTES swallows 1million dollars a day, every day, 365.

No one can tell me that long term, spending even a billion+ on a new mental health and long term recovery facility would not be a better option for all involved.

I do think, as much as I fundamentally dislike it, that some limitation on freedom would need to be placed and many of the serious mental health patients would need to be placed in care regardless of their willingness to do so.

Other than above I don't see a reasonable way to repair this. Psychologically these folks have been locked into the same pattern for years or decades, and frankly literally may not be capable of self care.

A roof overhead and some food absolutely go a long way, but will not solve this crisis alone.

Yes, I agree fully. I once went to a lavish Christmas put on by one of the (in)famous organizations down there. It was fifty grand party that hired security to keep out the very people they supposedly where there to help. It's sickening how much time and money is wasted.

Which is unfortunate, because there are also many great people doing incredible work down there. But the waste should be curbed and eliminated. In some ways, I would advocate for a more centralized system, perhaps a separate ministry, or health authority.

Once Riverview is done it's repairs and expansion, and once it reopens, I would also support some limitation on freedom if people can go there. Specially for those. as you say, that have been locked into the same pattern for years or decades. I do believe it's needed.

Modular housing is great for those that can hopefully get on their feet eventually, it's a good start. And it's temporary.

I think meaningful discussion and action can go a long way.

[logicbomb]

Socialism is great and all but it does not work in a globalized world. The most desirable places are seeing property value skyrocket while the transnational investment class/elite are migrating out of undesirable shitholes.

Money is pouring into BC, whether it be legally or illegally -and no amount of protectionist measures will stop this from happening.

World class cities are going to see property prices further increase so why keep the poor and mentally ill in a city where they can never contend with the rest? Modular housing and social programs aimed at providing cash to the poor are delaying the inevitable.

Re-placement should be further examined.

[Jalapeño Chips]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Socialism is great and all but it does not work in a globalized world. The most desirable places are seeing property value skyrocket while the transnational investment class/elite are migrating out of undesirable shitholes.

Money is pouring into BC, whether it be legally or illegally -and no amount of protectionist measures will stop this from happening.

World class cities are going to see property prices further increase so why keep the poor and mentally ill in a city where they can never contend with the rest? Modular housing and social programs aimed at providing cash to the poor are delaying the inevitable.

Re-placement should be further examined.

No, it will never happen. At least not with our current democratic system. We have a charter of rights that will override any possible forced relocation. The only way is under a authoritarian, or communist system.

And we don't want that, do we?

[CanSpice]

We already have socialized housing for our vehicles, but we can't do it for actual people?

[misher]

Originally Posted by Jalapeño Chips

No, it will never happen. At least not with our current democratic system. We have a charter of rights that will override any possible forced relocation. The only way is under a authoritarian, or communist system.

And we don't want that, do we?

It will never happen but you can't argue with it being a good policy. House homeless in cheaper areas where our tax dollars can go farther and food/labor is cheaper to care for them.

If we could put them on a ship/plane to a nation with cheap wages, high unemployment, and cheap food, this would be amazing. Imagine how much it would cost to care for people in the Phillipines or Nicaragua, places that could use the money and jobs. But in the alternative pick a town with high unemployment and build our facilities there. We do similar things for schooling (UBC Okanagan) and seniors (retirement villages/facilities across BC). I suspect we could sell each piece of land homeless facilities are on and obtain 3x that amount of land in Kelowna or even 1.5x that amount in Victoria (our capital). We are very Vancouver focused in BC and really do forget there's a whole province out there.