Rail Transit (Passenger and Freight) in Ontario

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

The flight time for jets may be less than 2 hours, but add in travel between the airports and respective downtowns plus the hassle of actually getting to the gate. That helps even things.

It does, but without implementing HSR (not on the table on either side of the border), my average speed of 200km/h for the train was highly optimistic. A more realistic average speed would be under 150 km/h, which would put the travel time above 5.5 hours. Of course none of those times include the long waits for everyone onboard to clear customs.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Could CP be looking for government money to do work on the tunnel (given its age I imagine there are issues? plus it can't handle some of the double-stacked freight cars, correct?), or improve its own track in Ontario?

I wondered the same thing the other day. Someone on UT posted that CP currently only uses the northerly (easterly?) of the two boreholes (the other may not have had its clearances raised). It is possible that CP wants Amtrak to pay to upgrade the southerly borehole in exchange for access to the tunnel.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It does, but without implementing HSR (not on the table on either side of the border), my average speed of 200km/h for the train was highly optimistic. A more realistic average speed would be under 150 km/h, which would put the travel time above 5.5 hours. Of course none of those times include the long waits for everyone onboard to clear customs.

Plus potential waits for freight trains.

Customs might be a wash between plane and train travel, depending on how it's handled.

Might be easier to "do business" on a long train ride... is that the market Amtrack is eyeing? I'd take that train to go to Chicago again, as a tourist. But probably only once a decade, if that.


I think we're on the same page that CN and CP really only do things if the financials work in their favour!

[Innsertnamehere]

Amtrak is estimating a ~9 hour travel time for when the service is established, BTW.

And that is including recent upgrades to track speeds in Michigan to 110mph.

Remember that Toronto has Amtrak service to New York (or at least did prior to the pandemic), and that train took 12 hours to make a trip that takes 8 hours to drive. Amtrak aiming for 9 hours to Chicago, which also takes 8 hours to drive, is actually a big improvement.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Customs might be a wash between plane and train travel, depending on how it's handled.

That depends. Frequent travelers often have NEXUS cards, allowing you to get through customs quickly and get on with your travels. On a train stopped at the boarder, you have to wait for everyone to clear customs before the train can move again, even those that Customs is spends extra time interrogating. As a result they will schedule over an hour stop at the boarder (see snippet of March 16, 2020 Maple Leaf Schedule below).



When the train only has one stop on one side of the boarder (like the Cascades to Vancouver or Adirondack to Montreal), they can put in pre-clearance facilities in the station to resolve that issue. As a result, it might make more sense to have VIA extend their trains into Detroit (or Amtrak extend their trains to Windsor) and require a transfer if you want to travel further. It does mean an extra transfer, but you will need to get off the train to clear customs anyway.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.recorder.ca/news/rail-up...0padrdZxWEpu3o
Via Rail Station upgrade in Brockville may get noisy.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://www.recorder.ca/news/rail-up...0padrdZxWEpu3o
Via Rail Station upgrade in Brockville may get noisy.

From article:

Via wants to ensure its platform is up to date with health and safety and accessibility standards, he added.

I wonder how exactly they are upgrading the platform?

[Dengler Avenue]

A snapshot of the so aptly named Bayview Junction (Hamilton): We may even see West Harbour Go at the far end. Pardon the photo quality though. (I thought iPhones were good for this type of shots…)

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

A snapshot of the so aptly named Bayview Junction (Hamilton): We may even see West Harbour Go at the far end. Pardon the photo quality though. (I thought iPhones were good for this type of shots…)

That's CN's Stuart St. yard, but the GO station is in the background (just in front of and between the first two bridges) along with the tracks of the Grimsby Subdivision. Looks like you were up on the bluff, in the park just west of Dundurn Castle.
https://goo.gl/maps/pmyCcJ1VPEX45wDMA

The rail yard was leased to another operator for a long time, but I believe it's back in CN's hands. There is much hope it will be moved at some point to make way for further reclamation of the west harbour for recreational use and redevelopment, but CN will want government to pay for that (plus more than a century of rail operation on that land will make for some costly remediation)

Bayview junction is actually a couple of kms northward. All the bridges and lookout spots make for a railfan paradise.
https://goo.gl/maps/eFa5qVePz1CkxwC19

[roger1818]

See link below for video report.

The railway to Arnprior, Ont. is a locomotive for economic growth

---

Tyler Fleming
CTV News Ottawa Multi-Skilled Journalist
Published June 9, 2022 6:32 p.m. EDT

---

A manufacturing company is calling on surrounding businesses in the Ottawa Valley to come aboard and share their railway track.

The only track left in the area could provide a cost-effective alternative for shipping and receiving a large volume of products.

As the train approaches, a series of short whistle-blasts can be heard in the distance. Only a few minutes later, five tanker cars slowly roll around the bend of the track.

It’s delivery day at the Nylene plant in Arnprior, Ont.

"There’s approximately 179,000 pounds of raw material inside each one of these containers," says logistics manager, Tom Fishenden. "For our facility there is only two suppliers in North America that supply the raw material - one is in Virginia, one is in Texas."

The product is called caprolactam, the main ingredient Nylene needs to produce nylon; which will be used to make carpets, wire and cable casings as well as other products, like plastic casters for chairs.

"The factory never shuts down," says Fishenden. "Bringing it in by rail ensures we have enough to last us maybe two to three weeks."

The non-hazardous compound travels from the U.S. to Ottawa, where it travels along the main cargo track through the city, then down a 40-kilometre spur line right to the plant's back door.

So, why rail over the road? Well, each one of these cargo containers is the equivalent of about four transport trucks worth of material.

On average Nylene receives a weekly delivery through CN Rail of nearly 20 trucks worth. Managing director Ralph Anzarouth says shipping by train is a fraction of the cost, but it does not include the price to maintain its line.

"Along with leasing the corridor from the city of Ottawa comes a responsibility to maintain the track," says Anzarouth. "We obviously, through this rail, can access any point in North America and I’m hoping to interest other businesses in the area to leverage this and participate in the maintenance of the rail … there’s the huge benefits of the rail from an eco standard point of view not just economical but ecology carbon footprint lowering costs."

Anzarouth adds that even throughout the pandemic and the sharp rise of inflation, their shipping costs have remained relatively stable.

"And there is a resurgence in North America of finding ways to ship to by rail simply because of the efficiencies of bulk and volume compared to what you can get on a truck," he says.

The rail line is the only one remaining in the area. As demand dropped, CN removed most of its tracks, which made way for nature trails instead.

"It’s a very attractive feature to have for a business and economic development in various regions," says David Wyboo, business development officer with the County of Renfrew.

"We’re always trying to canvas and find companies in our area that might be able to benefit, take advantage of this. If you are able to ship a large number of goods at an affordable rate that’s advantageous for our businesses which benefit the economy. When it comes to attracting new businesses as well, a lot of large manufacturers are always looking for the transportation networks that are available particularly rail."

Wyboo notes that Renfrew County is the largest in Ontario and offers a diversified economy of not only agriculture and forestry, but a large network of manufacturers including science and technology, all which could be carried by train.

"Things like cars for auto dealers, farm equipment machinery, any large number of manufactured goods, things like agricultural products and fertilizers, lumber as well aggregates would be potential materials shipped by rail and there could be advantages to that," says Wyboo.

For Anzarouth, the possibilities for this line are endless.

"There is lots of benefits to using rail," he says. "There’s an opportunity here to continue to use the rail and to continue to leverage it and possibly in the future possibly connect up to the LRT in Ottawa, why not!"

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/the-railwa...owth-1.5940676

[Dengler Avenue]

This sounds all the more urgent given that Arnprior might sell its portion of former CN Trail: https://www.renfrewtoday.ca/2022/06/...o-rail-trails/

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

See link below for video report.



https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/the-railwa...owth-1.5940676

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

This sounds all the more urgent given that Arnprior might sell its portion of former CN Trail: https://www.renfrewtoday.ca/2022/06/...o-rail-trails/

These are great reasons that the old line through the Ottawa Valley should be reactivated.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

These are great reasons that the old line through the Ottawa Valley should be reactivated.

Maybe tell (Vic) Fideli and (John) Yakabuski that ONR should seek to obtain running rights between North Bay and Mattawa and purchase the balance (from Mattawa to Ottawa)?

I’m serious.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Maybe tell (Vic) Fideli and (John) Yakabuski that ONR should seek to obtain running rights between North Bay and Mattawa and purchase the balance (from Mattawa to Ottawa)?

I’m serious.

... and the line west to SSM?

I'd agree to that.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

... and the line west to SSM?

I'd agree to that.

Oh right. Maybe lump Agawa Line into the package too.
This sounds pretty ambitious though.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Oh right. Maybe lump Agawa Line into the package too.
This sounds pretty ambitious though.

Putting all subsidized rail lines that are needed in the province under one rail owner would greatly reduce the bureaucracy and would streamline services. I doubt it will happen, but we can dream.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Putting all subsidized rail lines that are needed in the province under one rail owner would greatly reduce the bureaucracy and would streamline services. I doubt it will happen, but we can dream.

Run everything from North Bay?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

This sounds all the more urgent given that Arnprior might sell its portion of former CN Trail: https://www.renfrewtoday.ca/2022/06/...o-rail-trails/

The Mayor is referring to the abandoned ROW west of the Nylene facility, not the active rail line to Nylene. The vast majority of the active ROW is owned by the City of Ottawa, since Nylene is very close to the Ottawa/Arnprior boarder.

I suspect a more imminent concern is that CN is threatening to abandon the remaining section of the Beachburgh sub (mileposts 6.00 to 14.50), which connects the Renfrew sub to Ottawa (they listed that they want to discontinue it, along with their half of the Walkley Yard, in their 3 year plan back in July 2019). If the ANR (the rail subsidiary of Nylene) were to take over responsibility of that segment, their maintenance costs would increase substantially.

Since the Renfrew Sub west of Nylene has been divided up into small pieces, revitalizing it would be almost impossible. It might be feasible to connect it to the abandoned CP ROW, but I am not holding my breath on that one.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Run everything from North Bay?

Not necessarily. Yes, the head office of ONR is in North Bay, and North Bay does have the larger yard and shops, but Englehart is where the engineers and conductors are based out of.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The Mayor is referring to the abandoned ROW west of the Nylene facility, not the active rail line to Nylene. The vast majority of the active ROW is owned by the City of Ottawa, since Nylene is very close to the Ottawa/Arnprior boarder.

I suspect a more imminent concern is that CN is threatening to abandon the remaining section of the Beachburgh sub (mileposts 6.00 to 14.50), which connects the Renfrew sub to Ottawa (they listed that they want to discontinue it, along with their half of the Walkley Yard, in their 3 year plan back in July 2019). If the ANR (the rail subsidiary of Nylene) were to take over responsibility of that segment, their maintenance costs would increase substantially.

Since the Renfrew Sub west of Nylene has been divided up into small pieces, revitalizing it would be almost impossible. It might be feasible to connect it to the abandoned CP ROW, but I am not holding my breath on that one.

I thought the ROW of the old CN sub to Mattawa was still mainly intact.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I thought the ROW of the old CN sub to Mattawa was still mainly intact.

It was CP who had a ROW to Mattawa, and you are correct the ROW is mostly intact (though the tracks are were removed between Smiths Falls and just east of Mattawa in 2011/2012). That is why I said it "might be feasible to connect" the Renfrew sub to it. The question is, who would pay to rebuild it.

CN had two northern lines west of Ottawa, the former Canadian Northern Railway's (CNoR) and the former Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway (OA&PS), which was later sold to the Grand Trunk Railway. The CNoR line (CN's Beachburg and Alderdale subs) bypassed Arnprior, crossing over to Quebec near Fitzroy Harbor. Not sure what its status is, but the Ottawa City Council approved the purchase of the segment from the river to the junction with the Renfrew sub to use as a recreational trail.

It is the former OA&PS that ran through Arnprior, and is the line we are talking about. East of Nylene in Arnprior, the tracks were removed in 1980's and the ROW is so disjointed that there really is no hope of it ever being revitalized.

Here is a link to a map of mainlines in 1915, though the actual article has a bunch of mistakes in it. map: Canadian mainlines east of Winnipeg in 1915

A great resource for information is Tracing the Lines : Eastern Ontario and West Quebec Railway History in Maps by Brian Gilhuly, but his maps only extend to about Barry's Bay.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It was CP who had a ROW to Mattawa, and you are correct the ROW is mostly intact (though the tracks are were removed between Smiths Falls and just east of Mattawa in 2011/2012). That is why I said it "might be feasible to connect" the Renfrew sub to it. The question is, who would pay to rebuild it.

CN had two northern lines west of Ottawa, the former Canadian Northern Railway's (CNoR) and the former Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway (OA&PS), which was later sold to the Grand Trunk Railway. The CNoR line (CN's Beachburg and Alderdale subs) bypassed Arnprior, crossing over to Quebec near Fitzroy Harbor. Not sure what its status is, but the Ottawa City Council approved the purchase of the segment from the river to the junction with the Renfrew sub to use as a recreational trail.

It is the former OA&PS that ran through Arnprior, and is the line we are talking about. East of Nylene in Arnprior, the tracks were removed in 1980's and the ROW is so disjointed that there really is no hope of it ever being revitalized.

Here is a link to a map of mainlines in 1915, though the actual article has a bunch of mistakes in it. map: Canadian mainlines east of Winnipeg in 1915

A great resource for information is Tracing the Lines : Eastern Ontario and West Quebec Railway History in Maps by Brian Gilhuly, but his maps only extend to about Barry's Bay.

My mistake. I forgot that the CN line was the one that went through Algonquin Park