Is 800 meters really that great?

[miketoronto]

There has been much talk about the reduced coverage OC Transpo is proposing, and also discussion about how most people will still be within a 800 meter(10 minute walk) walk of transit.

However do you guys feel that 800 meters is even a good goal.
Is asking someone to walk 10 minutes to transit really that great and attractive?
Or given the density of the suburban neighbourhoods, do you think this goal strikes a balance between providing service and meeting financial restraints.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

There has been much talk about the reduced coverage OC Transpo is proposing, and also discussion about how most people will still be within a 800 meter(10 minute walk) walk of transit.

However do you guys feel that 800 meters is even a good goal.
Is asking someone to walk 10 minutes to transit really that great and attractive?
Or given the density of the suburban neighbourhoods, do you think this goal strikes a balance between providing service and meeting financial restraints.

IMO, it depends on the situation.

In a suburban area with fairly low densities, 800m is generally acceptable except for higher density blocks and seniors complexes. However, I do believe at least limited service should be within 400m of most people.

For an area with a large elderly or disabled population, or higher density blocks (i.e. larger apartment buildings), an 800m walk is simply too far and they should be within 400m of all-day service.

Everyone should, at a minimum though, have all day service no more than 1,200m away, and at least some service no more than 800m away. Any areas beyond those boundaries should be outside the Urban Transit Area (and not paying transit taxes). There will be about 1.5% of residences within the urban area that will suddenly fall outside those distances. I am recommending that a demand-responsive service fill those gaps.

[MaxHeadroom]

If you look at a TTC map, there are some areas in Toronto where it is a 800+m walk to a bus route. Mind you, Ottawa is 10 times the area and a quarter of the population. And consider most of those areas are upper class neighbourhoods where most households have two cars or more.

In my mind, OCTranspo must be very careful not to alienate their customers in this process, especially those middle/upper class that still take the bus and pay for the express fares. TTC did a study years ago that determined that most people would be willing to ride a bus for an additional 10 minutes if it meant that they would avoid a transfer. That is even more important in Ottawa, where winter temperatures and windchills are severe. It is no fun waiting 20+ minutes in a freezing bus shelter or bus platform for a connecting bus after a long day at work. In my experience in Ottawa, that 20 minutes wasted is about the same amount of time you'd save taking the bus over driving downtown.

Up until the last strike, I had primarily relied on transit for the last 12 years to commute to and from work in Toronto and Ottawa, leaving the cars at home. I realized that my income level that had increased over the years now allowed me to drive instead, so I've only taken the bus once since (and the driver got lost!). I think I've been much healthier and happier because of it, and I've been able to advance my career by not being tied to a bus schedule.

PS where I grew up out west, if you lived within 4km of a school, you WALKED. Ontario is too spoiled.

[lrt's friend]

The devil is in the details. There are some routes which have 3 mid-day trips and one evening trip and no weekend service. It seems that is now enough to meet the 800m standard. I believe this is crap.

The Ottawa Citizen editorial is rather critical of what is happening and considers it short sighted.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The devil is in the details. There are some routes which have 3 mid-day trips and one evening trip and no weekend service. It seems that is now enough to meet the 800m standard. I believe this is crap.

The Ottawa Citizen editorial is rather critical of what is happening and considers it short sighted.

This is what happens when a study is done comparing Ottawa to American cities.

I think a bigger deal should be made out of comparing Ottawa to American transit systems as a justification for cuts.

How about comparing Ottawa to Europe? If they did that Ottawa would have to be spending more money on transit. Not cutting it

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

This is what happens when a study is done comparing Ottawa to American cities.

I think a bigger deal should be made out of comparing Ottawa to American transit systems as a justification for cuts.

How about comparing Ottawa to Europe? If they did that Ottawa would have to be spending more money on transit. Not cutting it

That would cost politicians their jobs, since taxes would be increased by like 20% or more in one year.

The 800m standard is generally for all-day service, not the three midday trips and one evening trip that bring it to 400m for most (I recommend 60 minute midday frequency on those routes - which equates to six trips - plus a trip in the 7:00 pm hour). There are only a few areas that completely fall outside the hole, and my recommendation will cover virtually all of those somehow.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

That would cost politicians their jobs, since taxes would be increased by like 20% or more in one year.

The 800m standard is generally for all-day service, not the three midday trips and one evening trip that bring it to 400m for most (I recommend 60 minute midday frequency on those routes - which equates to six trips - plus a trip in the 7:00 pm hour). There are only a few areas that completely fall outside the hole, and my recommendation will cover virtually all of those somehow.

I guess you are abandoning retail workers and university and college students then. I could have not lived without evening service to at least 10 pm while in university. I would have had to buy a car somehow and you know what that means, I would have not been a transit customer at any hour.

To be honest, service standards are now becoming determined by computer programs and accountants. We are forgetting the most important thing, the customer. Making people walk much longer distances could backfire.

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The devil is in the details. There are some routes which have 3 mid-day trips and one evening trip and no weekend service. It seems that is now enough to meet the 800m standard. I believe this is crap.

The Ottawa Citizen editorial is rather critical of what is happening and considers it short sighted.

I agree. The bus 116 stop at 100 meters from T&T (Hunt Club & Riverside).
But look at the schedule! It's just like you said.

[lrt's friend]

I find it strange how things turn out. The city relocated the archives to a more transit friendly location on Woodroffe Avenue however at the same time as they are doing this they are changing the transit system. Since the route optimization in September, it is almost impossible for me to get there by transit but it is a whole lot easier to get to the new location by car. We are indeed developing a transit culture in this city. It is a really a very hollow promise. Unless you live next to or travel to the Transitway corridor, you just get more and more crap service. I think our politicians are increasingly isolated from their constituents and don't understand that the vast majority don't live within walking distance of a Transitway station.

[Acajack]

Not directly related but it made me think that in Paris every building in the city is no further than 500 m from a métro station.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

I agree. The bus 116 stop at 100 meters from T&T (Hunt Club & Riverside).
But look at the schedule! It's just like you said.

That's a mess IMO. The 116 was one of the worst moves they made, especially when an easy way out is available (combine with the 156 which also shares the illogical terminus and is a very short route). While the western part of the old 116 entirely duplicated other routes (86, 111 and 176), it is not like they couldn't fix it and instead stuck it at an illogical terminus. Reconnecting the link would also increase ridership, as it would also increase connections available from the Tanglewood area.

As for the hours being cut, that was another problem. Yes, ridership was quite low during those times cut. But the lack of any other service pretty much forced those lost passengers to drive. In the evenings, there is no service at all between Uplands (87, 146) and Merivale (176).

[Davis137]

Well, I guess I shouldn't complain about walking less then 100M from my front door to 1 of 2 Route 98 Stops, which takes me right to work without transffering...

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Davis137

Well, I guess I shouldn't complain about walking less then 100M from my front door to 1 of 2 Route 98 Stops, which takes me right to work without transffering...

Yeah you're definitely one of the lucky ones...Greenboro has always had pretty good service though, but ridership has likely soared in the area since the 98 was added. (Even though the 98 and 114 do not need to be side-by-side for a long section, the 114 would be better to cover some of the 143 territory)

[Davis137]

You are correct about the ridership through the southkeys area...some days there are as many buses running back and forth on Cahil and Albion as there are cars. When the other buses are too busy for my liking, I have the option of the 143 on Albion, and for now, the option of the 43 off of Tapiola as well, both of which are within 800M of my front door...

[lrt's friend]

When you consider that the Tapiola Crescent area has similar density as the rest of Greenboro, you would think that there could be justification for similar service. The problem has been that the 143 has always been lousy bus route not covering enough territory. I always wondered why the 114 could not combined with the 143 to make service in Greenboro a little more equitable. Of course, you will get the same tired argument from OC Transpo that ridership does not justify the service, but sometimes lousy service also generates lousy ridership.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

When you consider that the Tapiola Crescent area has similar density as the rest of Greenboro, you would think that there could be justification for similar service. The problem has been that the 143 has always been lousy bus route not covering enough territory. I always wondered why the 114 could not combined with the 143 to make service in Greenboro a little more equitable. Of course, you will get the same tired argument from OC Transpo that ridership does not justify the service, but sometimes lousy service also generates lousy ridership.

It could be because of the fact that there is nothing much at all on the north side of Johnston Road (for good reason, it is zoned industrial and not conducive to residential development with Walkley Yard right there).

[matty14]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

It could be because of the fact that there is nothing much at all on the north side of Johnston Road (for good reason, it is zoned industrial and not conducive to residential development with Walkley Yard right there).

When's the last time you were there? A whole residential subdivision has been built on the north side of Johnston.

[Davis137]

And, the little neighbourhood you mentioned isn't finished yet either (mind you, I don't see it expanding any further than it is now). Only other location I can see eventually being built up with something small in scale, is at Walkley and Johnston...