metrO Proposal

[p_xavier]

I have updated the plan with the O-Train commuter train connections and stations for the city of Ottawa ONLY.

http://www.ottawatransit.ca/map.html

[steve81]

Live Maps version updated:

http://maps.live.com/?v=2&cid=DFE85B...!143&encType=1

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by steve81

Live Maps version updated:

http://maps.live.com/?v=2&cid=DFE85B...!143&encType=1

Thanks, looks really good!

Also, for the LRTFriend, here is a pic of the stretch section of the ground canada line part:

[AuxTown]

Are you proposing that the entirety of the first phase (downtown tunnel to the airport) be double-tracked? What about the tunnel under Dow's Lake, do you think it can remain as a single track?

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Are you proposing that the entirety of the first phase (downtown tunnel to the airport) be double-tracked? What about the tunnel under Dow's Lake, do you think it can remain as a single track?

Yes, all double tracked, as single tracking under Dow's lake will give a headway of about 6 minutes. This won't be enough in the next few years. Why not do something right now right, I'm tired of things always pushed back that cost 10x more in the future.

The Lausanne M2 Metro is automatic, and has a tunnel which is singe tracked. It's feasible, but much more of a hassle than the cost involved.

The potential from the Airport is really good, people don't use the bus because it's awkward and shakes too much with luggage. The blue 22 project in Toronto shows that, even with low bus usage (actually, the 192 is far under utilised), there is a market for trains.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

The potential from the Airport is really good, people don't use the bus because it's awkward and shakes too much with luggage. The blue 22 project in Toronto shows that, even with low bus usage (actually, the 192 is far under utilised), there is a market for trains.

I don't see how a successful transit route in Toronto can be used to demonstrate anything for Ottawa. Toronto's airport is a lot further from downtown then Ottawa's, with far more expensive parking and a lot more traffic.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

I don't see how a successful transit route in Toronto can be used to demonstrate anything for Ottawa. Toronto's airport is a lot further from downtown then Ottawa's, with far more expensive parking and a lot more traffic.

That people don't use buses in both, but would for trains? Each time I take the 192 in TO, I'm surprised there's only one or two people. It's Canada's busiest airport, and no one takes transit by bus.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

That people don't use buses in both, but would for trains? Each time I take the 192 in TO, I'm surprised there's only one or two people. It's Canada's busiest airport, and no one takes transit by bus.

The airport may be one of the last places I'd consider going to on transit. Don't get me wrong, I've done it many times, and it was never convenient. I can't imagine LRT would be any more convenient than a regular bus. The big difference between something like Blue22 is that (I believe) it will have dedicate places for passenger baggage so they don't have to figure out where to put their baggage.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The airport may be one of the last places I'd consider going to on transit. Don't get me wrong, I've done it many times, and it was never convenient. I can't imagine LRT would be any more convenient than a regular bus. The big difference between something like Blue22 is that (I believe) it will have dedicate places for passenger baggage so they don't have to figure out where to put their baggage.

If it's like anything in European cities, there are sections for luggage/bikes in the cars. Not so much in buses. For me I hate taking luggage on the bus, because of the acceleration, braking, turns, ect. It's not convenient at all. On the subway, it affects less. It would also be convienient for government employees, since they're supposed to use rapid transit when available, and not taxis.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The airport may be one of the last places I'd consider going to on transit. Don't get me wrong, I've done it many times, and it was never convenient. I can't imagine LRT would be any more convenient than a regular bus. The big difference between something like Blue22 is that (I believe) it will have dedicate places for passenger baggage so they don't have to figure out where to put their baggage.

It's hard to explain why, but I know tons more people would take the train from the airport to their hotels or business meetings downtown than currently take the bus. There is just something about a train that seems more direct. For me, I have taken the 97 many times, but that is because I realize that Ottawa has an efficient, grade-sepparated BRT system. Just imagine arriving from London or New York and someone telling you to take a bus from the airport to downtown, it just wouldn't sound that appealing. A train to the airport doesn't just mean a few extra riders; it gives the city some credibility, an O'Brien'esque "swagger", that can't be duplicated with any other mode of transportation. It can't be forgotten that our aiport is one of the busiest in the country and growing significantly every year. Let's do this right.

[Aylmer]

Sorry to all supporters but I think the MetrO plan is a tad bit to ambitious


(This coming from the guy who dreams of a Trump tower in the region ...)

I do not understand why we NEED to convert all the transitway...
we can all survive with both (except the line to Orleans... that must be converted...)

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by AylmerLover

Sorry to all supporters but I think the MetrO plan is a tad bit to ambitious


(This coming from the guy who dreams of a Trump tower in the region ...)

I do not understand why we NEED to convert all the transitway...
we can all survive with both (except the line to Orleans... that must be converted...)

We can survive without a new bridge too, we can also survive without highways, and roads, and we can also survive without electricity.

The most economical way to reach Kanata and Orleans through denser areas is through the Transitway (besides a commuter train). Like the Transitway guy mentionned in his presentation, it's about 15M$ a km (let's say even 20M$ a km) to put LRT. If we have a rail tunnel (which is half the cost of a bus tunnel), there is enough money for conversion, which will allow for more direct service. The problem with starting downtown, is the available ROWs are already used by the Transitway. We could dig up tunnels parralel to the Transitway, but would that be cost effective? Also, BRT didn't improve the TOD, something that can be done with LRT.

Yes it is ambitious, but no more than the Mayor's task force plan, and definitely less than the moving 2020 plan from the Province of Ontario.

[the capital urbanite]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

The potential from the Airport is really good...

the numbers (current and forecasted) simply don't support the notion of good ridership potential...unless the private sector can come up with the money I believe that immediate construction of an airport spur is unnecessary.

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

...people don't use the bus because it's awkward and shakes too much with luggage.

...that's just absurd....people don't use the bus from/to the airport because:
1) people get picked up (in cars) by friends/family
2) hotel limo shuttles offer cheap, fast and comfortable transportation
3) taxis are still a relatively cheap option for frequent flyers since the airport is only 20 minutes from downtown.

...the only reason why you'd take the bus/train to the airport is:
1) you work there
2) you're cheap
3) you're poor (caveat: if you were really poor you probably wouldn't be flying)

...I'm cheap so I take the bus to/from the airport...no matter what time of day, when I travel between South Keys and the airport I can count the number of people on the bus on my hand....and the actual ridership numbers support this claim.

[the capital urbanite]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

It would also be convienient for government employees, since they're supposed to use rapid transit when available, and not taxis.

...I can guarantee that gov. employees are going to opt for the free taxi no matter how rapid or comfortable public transit is (until the day that traffic to the airport truly affects commuting time).

[the capital urbanite]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

It's hard to explain why, but I know tons more people would take the train from the airport to their hotels or business meetings downtown than currently take the bus. There is just something about a train that seems more direct. For me, I have taken the 97 many times, but that is because I realize that Ottawa has an efficient, grade-sepparated BRT system. Just imagine arriving from London or New York and someone telling you to take a bus from the airport to downtown, it just wouldn't sound that appealing. A train to the airport doesn't just mean a few extra riders; it gives the city some credibility, an O'Brien'esque "swagger", that can't be duplicated with any other mode of transportation. It can't be forgotten that our aiport is one of the busiest in the country and growing significantly every year. Let's do this right.

I agree, but let the business sector pay for it...not my dollars thank you.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by the capital urbanite

the numbers (current and forecasted) simply don't support the notion of good ridership potential...unless the private sector can come up with the money I believe that immediate construction of an airport spur is unnecessary.



...that's just absurd....people don't use the bus from/to the airport because:
1) people get picked up (in cars) by friends/family
2) hotel limo shuttles offer cheap, fast and comfortable transportation
3) taxis are still a relatively cheap option for frequent flyers since the airport is only 20 minutes from downtown.

...the only reason why you'd take the bus/train to the airport is:
1) you work there
2) you're cheap
3) you're poor (caveat: if you were really poor you probably wouldn't be flying)

...I'm cheap so I take the bus to/from the airport...no matter what time of day, when I travel between South Keys and the airport I can count the number of people on the bus on my hand....and the actual ridership numbers support this claim.

I'm not all of the above. As proven in London with the new Heathrow extension, rideshership is high, even moreso that they're building a new subway section just for the airport. Also remember that they have high speed rail service between dt and Heathrow there, and the subway is still used much.

The reason why I hate to take the bus, is for the acceleration that sends my luggage all over the place. In the end, you're saying that all other cities that linked their airport to their transit have made a mistake?

[Aylmer]

did you know that the airport is refusing a spur because they think they will lose parking money?

my cat is smarter!

[harls]

I've taken the bus once to the airport, for a 3 day business trip when I had just one carry on bag. I left straight from work in the middle of the afternoon. It was quick and efficient. Even though my work would expense a taxi, I thought it would be interesting to see just how efficient it was to get to the airport for 3 bucks, and surprisingly it was.

However, if I were going on vacation with extra luggage, leaving from home with my wife and 3 month-old kid in tow, there is no way I'd take transit... Depending on the length of the trip, I calculate how much a taxi ride to and from the airport would cost versus driving my own car to the airport parking garage. It usually costs me $30 bucks each way, so if long term parking is over $60, I'll take the taxi.. if not, I'm driving.

If a direct transit link to the airport was within a 10 minute walk from my house, maybe I'd consider it...

[the capital urbanite]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

In the end, you're saying that all other cities that linked their airport to their transit have made a mistake?

I support a rail link to the airport but only if it improves service and increases ridership (relative to the current bus service). Ottawa simply doesn't have the population or traffic chaos (London, New York) that would necessitate an improved airport public transit service. Unlike other large urban centres, parking at or near the Ottawa airport is relatively cheap, and it's quick to get to the airport by car/taxi. That ease of access will inevitably change as Riverside South expands and/or areas of the Greenbelt near the airport are re-developed...increasing demand for adequate public transit access.

(keep in mind tat we already have an efficient rapid transit link to the airport....you can get from the Rideau Centre to the airport in under 30 minutes at any time of day!).

It's not a matter of "if" an airport rail link should be built, it's "when"....I believe that would be at least 20 years from now. Build the "core" LRT system first, then we can extend it to the airport.

I think we should look towards Seattle and see how their LRT link to the airport pans out (also Seattle is a model of why you shouldn't build a bus tunnel that "can" be converted to LRT in the "distant" future...but that's a different rant).

It will be in service in 2009 and the distance from downtown to the airport is about the same as in Ottawa. The current bus service from downtown to the airport also takes 30 minutes.

[lrt's friend]

Let's face it. An airport link will be mainly for tourists and out of town business travellers going to a downtown hotel. Locals will mostly not use it since most will not live within walking distance of the LRT route and it will simply be too much of a hassle when dealing with luggage if you have to also use a bus.

If prestige is our main motivation for building LRT, then build the airport connection as our top priority. If getting commuters out of their cars is our main concern, the airport link should not be our top priority. I will take the latter. Of course, if we have an extra $50M lying around, we could do both. Not likely.

Any LRT plan that includes an airport link but does not go directly downtown is not worth the paper it is printed on. The worst of both worlds. Not convenient for most locals and not convenient for visitors. So forget those plans calling for an O-Train from the airport to the casino. It will be a useless waste of money. At least the current Transitway service goes downtown.