Lamenting the decline of the car

[WarrenC12]

The solid state batteries appear to have terrible longevity. Good first step maybe.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by wave46

Interesting idea, but if there's a set of vehicles that should have an internal combustion engine, classic cars should be them.

For a drag-strip wonder, sure, electrics all the way.

A mint 1970 Dodge Challenger or 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle? It doesn't seem right to not have a V8 rumble and big-cam lopey idle.

I completely agree with you. Maybe if I had three or 4 of the same vehicle I'd consider an iteration with an electric motor for variety. But considering I need about 6 more Chevy trucks in my collection before I even branch out into old muscle, I'll need a hell of a lottery win to ever "EV swap" a ride.

I was thinking more along the lines of EV's being "enforced" at some stage or in some way.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Where's ssiguy to tell us all about the Japanese banking on hydrogen?

I'm right here! Did you miss me? I've always gotten the impression you had the hots for me and this just confirms it. In all modesty I must confess that I don't blame you............I'm a great catch.

Contrary to popular belief I do not have a hard-on for hydrogen but rather view things outside of our spoiled Western bias. The biggest growth in auto sales will not be in the West but rather in the developing world and newsflash.........most of the planet does not enjoy the luxury of living in a SFH with a garage. This means hours waiting for your turn to refuel your battery car or 3 minutes to refuel your hydrogen one.

There is nothing "wrong" with battery vehicles I simply don't think they are practical for most people on the planet while hydrogen is and because hydrogen is the ONLY option for cargo, freight, air planes, agriculture, ferries, and ocean going vehicles, the infrastructure will have to be built regardless.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I'm right here! Did you miss me? I've always gotten the impression you had the hots for me and this just confirms it. In all modesty I must confess that I don't blame you............I'm a great catch.

Contrary to popular belief I do not have a hard-on for hydrogen but rather view things outside of our spoiled Western bias. The biggest growth in auto sales will not be in the West but rather in the developing world and newsflash.........most of the planet does not enjoy the luxury of living in a SFH with a garage. This means hours waiting for your turn to refuel your battery car or 3 minutes to refuel your hydrogen one.

There is nothing "wrong" with battery vehicles I simply don't think they are practical for most people on the planet while hydrogen is and because hydrogen is the ONLY option for cargo, freight, air planes, agriculture, ferries, and ocean going vehicles, the infrastructure will have to be built regardless.

Delivering hydrogen is not particularly practical. Storage/transport are difficult, so you either need easy access to natural gas or a significant electricity grid.

It makes sense in Iceland and maybe Qatar or the Falklands.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I'm right here! Did you miss me? I've always gotten the impression you had the hots for me and this just confirms it. In all modesty I must confess that I don't blame you............I'm a great catch.

So modest too....

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Contrary to popular belief I do not have a hard-on for hydrogen but rather view things outside of our spoiled Western bias. The biggest growth in auto sales will not be in the West but rather in the developing world and newsflash.........most of the planet does not enjoy the luxury of living in a SFH with a garage. This means hours waiting for your turn to refuel your battery car or 3 minutes to refuel your hydrogen one.

Did you miss the bit about higher charge rates with solid state batteries? We're already now at the point where the Volkswagen ID lineup (meant for regular buyers) can charge at 125 kW and they are promising higher charge rates on future models. The VW ID3 does 2% to 60% charge (~300 km of range) in 25 mins on a 100 kW charger. Close to the typical road trip break. And that's only going to get better. The Porsche Taycan charges at a ridiculous 270 kW, going from 0 to 80% in 22.5 mins. The reality is nobody is likely to get down to 0 in their car or charge to 80% on a roadtrip. So they are stopping for 10-15 mins, using the bathroom, getting a coffee and heading out with an extra 300 km of range in their car. When solid state batteries become mainstream, the non-luxury brands will have over 300 kW charge rates. Hence why a few charging networks are deploying 350 kW chargers. At those rates, you won't have enough time for the bathroom and coffee before your car is fully charged. And that's just roadtrips. For regular driving, most folks charge at home. The concept of going to a place regularly to fill up is increasingly looking outdated. 3 mins to fill sounds great if you ignore the 10 mins to drive to and from the gas station.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is nothing "wrong" with battery vehicles I simply don't think they are practical for most people on the planet while hydrogen is and because hydrogen is the ONLY option for cargo, freight, air planes, agriculture, ferries, and ocean going vehicles, the infrastructure will have to be built regardless.

You're wrong about the first part. Right about the second. The places of greatest batterification is the developing world. Everybody talks about China's EV boom. But nobody talks about the fact that India has more electric rickshaws on the road than China had EVs. Or Thailand working to convert 100% of their Tuk Tuk fleet to electric. An electric car is an easier sell in most of the developing world where petrol is either very expensive or subsidized by the government, and where huge ranges aren't required. They can get away with 300 km of range where you might not consider the model. As batteries come down in price, it's looking like EVs are going to do to the developing world what cellphones did, let them leap past legacy tech.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Delivering hydrogen is not particularly practical. Storage/transport are difficult, so you either need easy access to natural gas or a significant electricity grid.

It makes sense in Iceland and maybe Qatar or the Falklands.

Exactly. Ultimately it's the infrastructure that will kill the hydrogen for regular drivers dream. It's just not there. Try and look for a hydrogen fill station near you. It'll be hard to find one. Now try and look for a Fast charger near you. If you can't find one within 3-5km of where you live, just give it a year or two. Canadian Tire installing fast chargers at most of their locations alone means most Canadians will live near one.

The debate really is over. Consumer cars aren't going to be fuelled by hydrogen. Now, whether semis get fuelled by hydrogen is another story (though the window is narrowing in this one). It'll mostly be the fuel for trains, planes and ships.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Porsche Taycan charges at a ridiculous 270 kW, going from 0 to 80% in 22.5 mins. The reality is nobody is likely to get down to 0 in their car or charge to 80% on a roadtrip. So they are stopping for 10-15 mins, using the bathroom, getting a coffee and heading out with an extra 300 km of range in their car. When solid state batteries become mainstream, the non-luxury brands will have over 300 kW charge rates. Hence why a few charging networks are deploying 350 kW chargers. At those rates, you won't have enough time for the bathroom and coffee before your car is fully charged. And that's just roadtrips. For regular driving, most folks charge at home. The concept of going to a place regularly to fill up is increasingly looking outdated. 3 mins to fill sounds great if you ignore the 10 mins to drive to and from the gas station.

Yeah my 2 cents on fast charging is that it's great for road trips, and realistically after 100kW speeds the gains are marginal. Tesla is up to 250kW widely deployed and VAG is now at 350kW (for 800V models).

It's a dick measuring contest at this point, which is fine. But any regular vehicle that can handle 100kW+ will be adequate for road trips.

This level of charging is really only required for a minority of trips, IE: long distance road trips. Even a cab or delivery vehicle driving all day will likely only need to L2 charge overnight.

The "first gen" Chademo and CCS chargers at 50kW were nice, but noticeably slower now. Nothing wrong using them if you have the time (like a meal break), but they make for slower road trips.

Anecdotally traveling with my Tesla, I'm often running back out of Starbucks because my car is reaching the charge level I want and per minute billing is "motivating".

[whatnext]

Speaking of Tesla, am I the only one who thinks the Model Y is fugly? The Model 3 is attractive enough but the Y looks like they just stretched it taller and didn't give a rat's ass about proportions.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Speaking of Tesla, am I the only one who thinks the Model Y is fugly? The Model 3 is attractive enough but the Y looks like they just stretched it taller and didn't give a rat's ass about proportions.

I feel like it is objectively ugly, I don't see how anyone could say the Y is a good looking car.

[WarrenC12]

3 and Y look pretty good given the drag co-efficient requirements.

I pre-ordered a Cybertruck, so take my views on looks with a grain of salt.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

3 and Y look pretty good given the drag co-efficient requirements.

I pre-ordered a Cybertruck, so take my views on looks with a grain of salt.

The Cybertruck is pretty out there, but at least it is an original design (except for every 5 year old's first drawing of a car ). I'd be tempted if they weren't a billion dollars to buy. The other Tesla's though are just generic cars, with the Y just being a blown up version.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The Cybertruck is pretty out there, but at least it is an original design (except for every 5 year old's first drawing of a car ). I'd be tempted if they weren't a billion dollars to buy. The other Tesla's though are just generic cars, with the Y just being a blown up version.

Cybertruck on paper is amazing value and utility. That's why I put my order in, and of course I'm not committed to anything.

Agree Tesla is basically normal modern design, as opposed to early EVs which were totally butt ugly.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Cybertruck on paper is amazing value and utility. That's why I put my order in, and of course I'm not committed to anything.

Agree Tesla is basically normal modern design, as opposed to early EVs which were totally butt ugly.

Oh yeah - Tesla's designs are "fine" IMO, and that is far more preferable than the granola and sandals design of prior EVs. It shouldn't have taken an eccentric billionaire to come up with the groundbreaking realization that most people would rather drive a normal looking car not something both unusual and ugly.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yeah my 2 cents on fast charging is that it's great for road trips, and realistically after 100kW speeds the gains are marginal. Tesla is up to 250kW widely deployed and VAG is now at 350kW (for 800V models).

It's a dick measuring contest at this point, which is fine. But any regular vehicle that can handle 100kW+ will be adequate for road trips.

I think more is needed. You kind of have to think of the use cases of a regular driver. Not an EV fan hypermiling. And I would guess at someone who drives 2.5 hrs at 120 kph and stops for 15-20 mins. So the charge rates need to deliver ~300 km in 15-20 mins. So 180 kW for a sedan or compact SUV (5km/kWh). And 225 kW for a large SUV or truck (4km/kWh). That kind of charging speed means absolutely no impact to driving style or pattern. I think Electrify Canada deploying 150 kW chargers everywhere is close to this mark. And of course, Tesla gets this with their 250 kW charging.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

This level of charging is really only required for a minority of trips, IE: long distance road trips. Even a cab or delivery vehicle driving all day will likely only need to L2 charge overnight.

Mostly. The speed is valuable for those who don't have access to a charger at home or work. There's a Canadian Tire that has Electrify Canada chargers and is beside a Starbucks near me. I live in a condo that has no charging infrastructure. If we were to get an EV, I would simply take a coffee break at that charger once a week for 20-30 mins.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The "first gen" Chademo and CCS chargers at 50kW were nice, but noticeably slower now. Nothing wrong using them if you have the time (like a meal break), but they make for slower road trips.

I think of the 50 kW as grocery store chargers. Get your week's worth of range while doing you groceries. Even this should probably be bumped up to 75 kW.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

...Mostly. The speed is valuable for those who don't have access to a charger at home or work. There's a Canadian Tire that has Electrify Canada chargers and is beside a Starbucks near me. I live in a condo that has no charging infrastructure. If we were to get an EV, I would simply take a coffee break at that charger once a week for 20-30 mins...

Yeah, you and everybody else who buys an EV. That's the downfall, city planners have pushed so many people into condo living that there are hundreds of thousands of units with no charging capability. No doubt the esteemed idiots in Vancouver's planning department believe the delusional fiction these people won't own cars. Rather than cook up new penalty-based taxes, like a congestion charges, cities should be spending more money to provide charging infrastructure.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Yeah, you and everybody else who buys an EV. That's the downfall, city planners have pushed so many people into condo living that there are hundreds of thousands of units with no charging capability. No doubt the esteemed idiots in Vancouver's planning department believe the delusional fiction these people won't own cars. Rather than cook up new penalty-based taxes, like a congestion charges, cities should be spending more money to provide charging infrastructure.

Cities are mandating electrical access, but higher levels of government are subsidizing retrofitting in a big way:

https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com...ates/apartment

[lio45]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Oh yeah - Tesla's designs are "fine" IMO, and that is far more preferable than the granola and sandals design of prior EVs. It shouldn't have taken an eccentric billionaire to come up with the groundbreaking realization that most people would rather drive a normal looking car not something both unusual and ugly.

The Model S and Model 3 are right at the sweet spot where they look high-tech and distinctive (love the door handles, among other details) while still being generally "normal looking" (unlike, say, the second-gen Prius, or the Cybertruck).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Yeah, you and everybody else who buys an EV. That's the downfall, city planners have pushed so many people into condo living that there are hundreds of thousands of units with no charging capability. No doubt the esteemed idiots in Vancouver's planning department believe the delusional fiction these people won't own cars. Rather than cook up new penalty-based taxes, like a congestion charges, cities should be spending more money to provide charging infrastructure.

Millions of units nationwide actually.

And it's a known barrier to EV adoption. A strange one because condo owners are probably the type of people to buy EVs instead of gas cars.

Not sure that it's the place of municipalities to build up charging infrastructure. It's coming. See the example I gave above of a charging station near me. What I would really love to see are fast chargers in places that I go to. Put that same charging station at the Food Basics or Loblaws we shop at and it'll be perfect. The lack of home charging just becomes a minor annoyance at that point.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Cities are mandating electrical access, but higher levels of government are subsidizing retrofitting in a big way:

https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com...ates/apartment

These policies and programs, all sound great. But they seem to be doing very little on the ground in truly building up charging infrastructure for multi-unit dwellings. A huge part of the problem is the condo board and its residents. For example, I live in a condo that is near an LRT station and full of older (mostly retired) residents. The result is that there's a lot of residents on fixed incomes who either don't drive or drive very little. Making any changes that cost money are a fight. Let alone say a proposal to spend $1-2k per spot to put in a connection that would let each resident charge in their bay.

I think what's really needed is some sort of government financing for most condos. Not necessarily grants. Let my condo corporation take out a 25 year loan to put in a charging spot for all ~150 parking spots. Even at $2k per spot, the cost is only $7 per spot increase on condo fees over 25 years. That becomes an easier sell.

[urbandreamer]

I love the Model 3 and Model Y. I was surprised to see so many Teslas in the small town of Listowel, Ontario today; it used to be exclusively minivan and pickup truck territory. For range however the Model 3 makes the most sense.

Do any of you drive the 2015-2020 Honda Fit? I like its versatility/flexible seats. Am considering getting either a 2017 Honda Fit, Mazda 3 or VW Golf next Spring.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I love the Model 3 and Model Y. I was surprised to see so many Teslas in the small town of Listowel, Ontario today; it used to be exclusively minivan and pickup truck territory. For range however the Model 3 makes the most sense.

Do any of you drive the 2015-2020 Honda Fit? I like its versatility/flexible seats. Am considering getting either a 2017 Honda Fit, Mazda 3 or VW Golf next Spring.

I was originally looking at a Fit to replace my 2006 Civic, but after hearing that they are discontinuing them after the 2020 model year, I became hesitant (plus I read that the ride and rode noise are both quite poor). Instead, I am purchasing a 2013 Prius tomorrow which I found a great deal for.