Lamenting the decline of the car

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am a fan of manuals, though it's been several vehicles (so decades) since I have had one.

One of the things I've loved about trips to Europe is when we rent cars, they're almost always manuals.

Though even in Europe automatics are really gaining in market share. I expect that eventually they will end up where we are.

That said, over the summer I was in the market for a used car for one of my kids (my kids only know how to drive automatics so far) and on the Montreal used car market which we were exploring due to its humongous size, I was surprised how many manuals there were in the lower price categories, ie between 8,000 and 12,000.

It wasn't most of them but there were still a lot. Ford Fiesta and Toyota Yaris type of stuff.

There was a time where there were tradeoffs either way (manuals were cheaper, had better mileage and allowed more control in certain situations) but than has not been the case in several years with more sophisticated automatic transmissions being widely available.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Exactly. When we drive we break the law ALL the time and we are perfectly cool with that. Anybody who says they don't break traffic laws at least once a day is a pathological liar.

This has nothing to do with what is right or wrong but simply good old fashioned human nature. If everyone {or anyone} was truly concerned about public safety and willing to sacrifice their time to enhance it then we would all be gleefully and willingly be putting governors on the cars we already have.

I can only assume that all of you who abhor all the endless traffic infractions the rest of the populace engages in already have them installed on your own vehicles for the greater good, better fuel economy, and ensuring you never go over 100. Governors are very cheap and easy to install so why don't you inform us of where you got yours done so we can all sign up?

First, if someone is not actively driving a vehicle, those irritations would be far less irritating. If I'm sitting on a GO Train, my attention is absorbed by a book, or conversation, or podcast. I'm not thinking about how the train is accelerating too slowly, or other details of the journey.

Second, a lot of the behaviours you're describing that are relatively common now do not speed up journey times and in fact can slow journeys for everyone else. Reckless drivers who cross three lanes of traffic and are constantly accelerating and braking trying to weave their way through congestion *might* get to their destination a few minutes earlier, but their activity slows the entire highway.

I've made the same highway commute for going on ten years now and have dramatically changed my driving patterns over that time - I used to be far more aggressive and now tend to keep in the right lane and follow the speed of traffic. The journey is less stressful, I'm taking fewer risks, and importantly, it has had precisely next to no impact on my overall travel time.

Given a commute, or a long distance cross-country trip, I think the vast majority of drivers would have other things they'd rather have occupying their attention. The situations where someone actually wants to be driving are comparatively few, and I'd say that interest in performance driving, or Sunday driving or off-roading or other situations where the driving is the primary experience is greatly diminished in newer generations.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jamincan

The situations where someone actually wants to be driving are comparatively few, and I'd say that interest in performance driving, or Sunday driving or off-roading or other situations where the driving is the primary experience is greatly diminished in newer generations.

Exactly the reason why the younger generations are so much more boring and conformist than their more entertaining and enlightened elders.......

[WarrenC12]

Just think of the efficiency gains for society when the rest of us aren't paying for idiotic drivers getting into accidents and everything that is involved: insurance, traffic delays, police time, healthcare, missed work, and on, and on.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Just think of the efficiency gains for society when the rest of us aren't paying for idiotic drivers getting into accidents and everything that is involved: insurance, traffic delays, police time, healthcare, missed work, and on, and on.

Autonomous vehicles will be a very useful appliance, no question, but it won't be a universal panacea. People should always have the option of manual control if they so wish. We should all continue to get practice in driving our vehicles.

Just imagine if the network goes down (cyberattack perhaps). All cars grind to a halt. If you don't know how to drive, how will you get home? At least if you maintain your basic driving skills this will give you some flexibility...…...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Autonomous vehicles will be a very useful appliance, no question, but it won't be a universal panacea. People should always have the option of manual control if they so wish. We should all continue to get practice in driving our vehicles.

Just imagine if the network goes down (cyberattack perhaps). All cars grind to a halt. If you don't know how to drive, how will you get home? At least if you maintain your basic driving skills this will give you some flexibility...…...

These cars will be able to operate on their own, no question. They do now... no network required.

But again your example is in the 0.001% of reality. What happens when your cell phone network goes down? My entire life is on there, but I get by for a while when it happens for a few hours every 5-10 years.

[MonctonRad]

As I've said before, I have no real problems with the development of AV technology, and I am sure that I would personally use such technology on occasion.

The glee that some forumers seem to profess for removing the right of people to control their own motor vehicles manually if they so choose is what I find distressing.

This is an urban issue. In most of Canada's land mass, manual control of a motor vehicle may be preferable, especially when road conditions are unpredictable.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Exactly the reason why the younger generations are so much more boring and conformist than their more entertaining and enlightened elders.......

People that don't like the same things I do are boring and conformist!!!

OK Boomer.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

OK Boomer.

Ageism rears it's ugly head. I'm beginning to hyperventilate. I may faint...…….

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As I've said before, I have no real problems with the development of AV technology, and I am sure that I would personally use such technology on occasion.

The glee that some forumers seem to profess for removing the right of people to control their own motor vehicles manually if they so choose is what I find distressing.

This is an urban issue. In most of Canada's land mass, manual control of a motor vehicle may be preferable, especially when road conditions are unpredictable.

LOL glee? If it makes roads safer for myself and my family to travel on, I will absolutely support this.

Urban issue you say... The vast majority of Canadians live in urban environments. This is an urban forum.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As I've said before, I have no real problems with the development of AV technology, and I am sure that I would personally use such technology on occasion.

The glee that some forumers seem to profess for removing the right of people to control their own motor vehicles manually if they so choose is what I find distressing.

This is an urban issue. In most of Canada's land mass, manual control of a motor vehicle may be preferable, especially when road conditions are unpredictable.

I wouldn't worry about it, this won't all happen for decades and society will be conditioned to accept it by the time it happens. Who cares though, we're not allowed to do plenty of things and it's fine. I can't keep a pig in my yard - damn nanny state keeping me from growing my own food!

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Ageism rears it's ugly head. I'm beginning to hyperventilate. I may faint...…….

Well, you started with it. Even if you believe you were being sarcastic.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Well, you started with it. Even if you believe you were being sarcastic.

It's only ageism when you're talking about boomers. It's totally okay to complain about Millenials or Gen Z, though.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I wouldn't worry about it, this won't all happen for decades and society will be conditioned to accept it by the time it happens. Who cares though, we're not allowed to do plenty of things and it's fine. I can't keep a pig in my yard - damn nanny state keeping me from growing my own food!

You can keep chickens in a backyard coop in Moncton, but no rooster though.

Damned sexist nanny state!

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Autonomous vehicles will be a very useful appliance, no question, but it won't be a universal panacea. People should always have the option of manual control if they so wish. We should all continue to get practice in driving our vehicles.

Just imagine if the network goes down (cyberattack perhaps). All cars grind to a halt. If you don't know how to drive, how will you get home? At least if you maintain your basic driving skills this will give you some flexibility...…...

I completely agree.

As I stated, I have no problem with AV in a number of application INCLUDING regular cars. Once proven basically 100% safe, if someone wants to have an AV then go for it, I couldn't care less. I also don't care {and would actually probably want} a car with the autonomous option.

Where I do care is if cars become completely autonomous and have hence taken away my ability to drive myself anywhere I want, whenever I want. If anyone tried to put a governor on my car I would more than happily break the law to have it taken out.

[theman23]

One thing that I think AV will be really helpful with is making it easier for people to be shuttled to commuter rail stations. No need to worry about large parking lots, and no need for the user to worry about finding a spot to park their vehicle.

[jamincan]

Is there any serious consideration of banning non-autonomous vehicles?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Is there any serious consideration of banning non-autonomous vehicles?

I don't think they'll ever be banned. They may phase themselves out if insurance premiums for driving yourself begin to skyrocket.

[canucklehead2]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't think they'll ever be banned. They may phase themselves out if insurance premiums for driving yourself begin to skyrocket.

Bingo. Existing self-drive even if its crude form is ALREADY 5X safer than a human driver... Insurance operators will want people to drive automated cars for this reason... https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtem.../#d3a7c6e5b97c

Want a simple test? Use cruise control on any road that has a smidge of traffic and see how awful humans are at even just keeping speed at a constant...

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There was a time where there were tradeoffs either way (manuals were cheaper, had better mileage and allowed more control in certain situations) but than has not been the case in several years with more sophisticated automatic transmissions being widely available.

Manuals are still more fun to drive, more reliable and cheaper to fix. It's kind of a moot point though, since EVs will make all transmissions obsolete fairly soon. Manual vs automatic will become as relevant as VHS vs Beta.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The glee that some forumers seem to profess for removing the right of people to control their own motor vehicles manually if they so choose is what I find distressing.

This is an urban issue. In most of Canada's land mass, manual control of a motor vehicle may be preferable, especially when road conditions are unpredictable.

Controlling a motor vehicle is not and has never been a right. Given how much safer autonomous cars are than humans even in their primitive current form, they're going to save millions of lives. Damn straight I'm gleeful about that.

AVs are just as relevant in rural areas as urban.

Originally Posted by jamincan

Is there any serious consideration of banning non-autonomous vehicles?

There will be, once autonomous cars are ubiquitous and the safety benefits become apparent. Driving a car in the future is going to be like riding a horse - a hobby that will have its dedicated followers at race tracks, but for most people a relic of a former era.