Quote:
Originally Posted by adamuptownsj
There's no opposition to tall buildings, of course. Don't know where he's getting that from. He just seems to think Trudeau is going to build affordable skyscrapers in the middle of a working, growing port in 16 months if we get out of his way and let the feds help us. No sense of realism or practicality. Gets offended when people shoot down his random ideas with reason. Probably close to calling us NIMBYs lol.
Should Saint John try to develop the unused parts of the Garrison lands? Yes. Should we develop a medium term plan to do something on Long Wharf and/or Lower Cove? Yes. Should the city/province raise taxes (in a revenue-neutral way) on vacant land in the PDA? Yes. Should we explore the possibility of building housing at a portion of the former AIM site? Yes. <-FTFY 
We aren't Singapore, we don't need to shove housing onto every plot of federal land in the city. There's plenty of Saint John to go around without selling the farm. The housing shortage, while acute, is not related to a shortage of land to build on. It's construction and labour costs combined with population growth, overlaid on a ~50 year period when very little non-SFH housing was built, which is what's really compounding affordability issues.
If not having our heads in the clouds about fantasy projects makes us as grim and negative as CBC commenters to this guy, so be it, I guess. There's plenty of 'we should improve/extend/build [XYZ]' discussion on here, but it's pretty refreshingly grounded, and usually doesn't feature needless partisan sniping. Smythe St lots, Harbour Passage, Long Wharf and Lower Cove, the Millidge Ave corridor, Main St, and more get a lot of constructive discussion... because they're actual, viable concepts that we can chew on. "We need a decommissioned Navy ship in the old privately owned drydock beside the wallboard plant because taxpayers will likely pay for maintenance" isn't. |
First off, don't assume my gender. That's really not cool, man. It's 2024!
No opposition to tall buildings in Saint John? Yeah right. I thought you've lived here your whole life? Theres plenty of opposition to tall buildings being built in Saint John, let alone literal skyscrapers. How about the Fort Dufferin proposal that got shut down for NIMBY reasons? You claimed the whole area was eroding away, but had no source to back that claim. Anyways...
I never once suggested only building "affordable skyscrapers" smack dab in the middle of the port (I actually suggested building in the more liminal, less crucial areas) Nor do I expect Trudeau and the federal government to build them all by themselves! I also said condos or apartments, so what the hell do you think condos are... public housing? No, I'm all for a mix of investors being involved in building housing on public lands per Trudeau's plan to open up more federally owned property, including ports, to housing development. If you think I'm offended that we disagree, I'm sorry, but I'm not offended by you, or sailor for shutting down my "random ideas". It's definitely annoying when you try to put words in my mouth and misconstrue what I'm trying to say, but I'm sure as hell not offended by simple disagreements or differences of opinions. About the only time you've come close to offending me is when you made some baseless claim about most bike riders in SJ being homeless, drug addicts, but I still wasn't really offended, I just thought you were being rude, judgemental, and ignorant.
I've not suggested "selling the farm", or that Saint John suddenly become the next Shenzhen, Singapore, or Kuala Lumpur, although we could certainly learn a lot from those cities, even if they are not very comparable demographically... there are some distinct similarities if you think about it, and probably some things we could emulate. (especially their penchant for building interesting, aesthetically pleasing looking skyscrapers)
You tried to blame the entire housing crisis on Trudeau and immigrants in the other thread, but now you're at least being more reasonable by bringing up the previous 50 years. Saint John needs bolder solutions to tackle the housing crisis. Building skyscrapers should be a logical part of that, and the city and province don't have any sort of policies set up to promote the building of taller buildings... the federal government, on the other hand, is at least is trying to promote height and density. What is your guy Higgs doing on that front?
Pardon me for thinking outside the box and throwing some ideas out there on this forum. Why don't you go tell the people in the OKC Legends Tower thread to get their heads out of the cloud and come back down to earth while you're on here?
Moreso, I think you need to get out of Saint John sometimes and see more of the world, as it sounds like you've not really seen much outside of the maritimes... I think you'd benefit from some differing perspectives! Just a suggestion.
If you insist on continuing to belittle me and call all my ideas and dreams for Saint John as "unrealistic fantasy projects", that would be unfortunate, but not exactly unexpected based on our previous exchanges.
As for me suggesting "
We need a decommissioned Navy ship in the old privately owned drydock beside the wallboard plant because taxpayers will likely pay for maintenance" ("great" paraphrase, btw)
that was a slightly tongue in cheek response to Sailor for pointing out that it's "expensive to keep old ships afloat"... although it would still be a better use for the drydock than it's completely unused status at the moment. You just reminded me of an idea I had nearby point of interest, that being the Courtney Bay Breakwater. Talk about a missed opportunity, it could be a place where people go for a scenic walk or bike ride, but as far as I know, it's completely off limits to the public. Perhaps you've been to Dublin before, and heard of the Poolbeg Peninsula which hosts the Port of Dublin?
There's a very popular location there called the Great Southern Wall, and it's actually quite similar to the Courtney Bay Breakwater, with a much more impressive lighthouse at the end, the main difference is that it's a popular tourist attraction completely accessible to the public. Here's a pic for reference:
How great would it be if the Courtney Bay Breakwater could be utilized in a similar way one day for Saint Johnners to get out on and enjoy.
But whoops, better get my head out of the clouds, and get to clarify what I suggested regarding the possibility of bringing one of the soon to be decommissioned Halifax class frigate to Saint John. My thinking was that it could be used as Naval training vessel, but I also like the idea of it being a museum ship, which is probably the better, more realistic idea based on responses from posters with far better manners than yourself.
Ships are an intrinsic part of New Brunswick and Saint John history, the New Brunswick flag has a ship on it, and Saint John built thousands upon thousands of ships throughout its history. It's not outrageous to suggest one of the frigates be turned into a museum ship and tied up in Saint John Harbour. How is this not a realistic project for purposes of tourism and preserving our national heritage? Saint John being Canada's oldest incorporated City with a long, important history of shipbuilding make it a logical choice for a future museum ship, especially one of the Halifax-class frigates, many of which were built here in Saint John, and are expected to begin the decommissioning process by the end of the decade, one at a time. I really think we could make it work, and it would become a fixture of the city, something for us all to be proud of as Saint Johnners.
Call me crazy, but the people who are crazy enough to think they can change things are the ones that actually do. We need more big, ambitious solutions to the housing crisis here in Saint John. I at least respect that you care a lot about Saint John and want to see more done to make it a better city, but you don't really seem open to government intervention in building homes. It seems that you care more about what building publicly funded housing developments or homeless shelters in Saint John might cost taxpayers in Alberta, than you do about allowing the federal government to step up and set the lead and invest and intervene where our NB provincial government refuses to. Would I call you a NIMBY? Possibly, you basically are when it comes to the port, and I've also heard you parrot the typical Saint John lines about increased traffic being reasons to shut down certain proposals. But again, I'd say I mostly respect that you do care about Saint John, and want to see it improved, much as I do, even though we seemingly envision much different ideal futures for the city. I've lived all over the world and Canada and I think Saint John is one of the most fascinating cities I've ever lived in, with tremendous history, but also the most squandered potential of any city I've ever lived in. It's sad that when you look to the past, Saint John had a lot more urban density, it had street cars, it had harbour ferries, it had ships to Boston, trains to Montreal, and it was very much the center of New Brunswick. I think we're in full agreement that Saint John has no dearth of available land, and I'm like 10000% in agreement with you about vacant land. The City of Saint John should be devising new strategies to create new suburban developments right up to the borders with Rothesay, Grand Bay, but also towards Lorneville, where private developers have almost a blank canvas to build up the area into a very attractive seaside suburban community with a mix of single family homes some taller apartments and condos to take advantage of the seaside views. When it comes to suburban developments and any sort of "luxury" housing like seaside condos, etc, I think the government should leave that up to the private market.
Where I think we disagree is when it comes to affordable and rental housing: in those cases, I think all levels of government should be doing more to promote height and density within core urban areas through tax incentives, direct subsidies, or even getting directly involved in the process of building and ownership themselves, especially when it comes to federally owned properties. This two pronged approach could see the housing crisis pretty well dealt with within a decade, including some stricter controls on immigration, of course.
I joined this forum because I've always been of the opinion that building some legitimate skyscrapers could and should be part of the solution to not only the housing crunch in Saint John, but our identity crisis. You were the first poster to welcome me to the forum, but also the first poster to ridicule my suggestions for being too unrealistic. You happen to think a high rise at the port on the fringe of the former AIM site would be impossible or ridiculous, while I happen to think the Port could actually utilize such a building in a useful way to enhance their port operations. If there was a mixed use skyscraper to built where the current AIM offices are, the Port could utilize the top few floors for office and operational space, it would give them not only a 360° birds eye view of the West Side's operation, it would be high enough of a vantage point to see all their facilities, on the other side of the harbour, and even right out into Bay. As you said, it could be connected to Marketplace West via an overpass, and it would not have to disrupt port operations, whatsoever. Rather, it could actually enhance the port's operations. Just for fun... perhaps it could look something like this:
Would still love to hear your thoughts on how we can actually attract the investment needed to build some 30-40+ storey buildings built here in Saint John one day. I'm sure you have some great ideas and insight on how to get them built! Surely there's some good ideas to be had in a conversation between a staunch realist like yourself who prefers more grounded ideas, and more of an idealist like myself who prefers to discuss big, buildings in the skyline ideas.
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