Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Half popular with who? Anyone who was around in AB in the 1980s will remember the horrible investment decisions made by the government of the day and how much frickin' money we lost. The province can do other things to help industries such as streamline regulations but we shouldn't be making risky investments.

The discourse at the time it was mentioned seemed to show a decent number of stereotypical wexit types who thought that using pension funds to "invest in Alberta" would be a great way to stick it to Trudeau and all the other (in their mind) oil haters to ensure oil projects got built. And was used as justification for Alberta exiting the CPP.

Anyway, luckily the idea looks like it has been put away and it seems like the UCP has enough fires to put out to worry about those loony separatist fantasies.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by craner

I have 2 main issues with the Green Line (and i know I sound like a broken record).
1. The surface running on Center Street will be a disaster. I can’t believe the idea hasn’t been shot down by proponents the second it was suggested. Absolutely mind boggling to me that it is now the planned option. Some think it will improve the pedestrian experience on Center, but it will make it worse. And as far as it being a portion of a rapid transit line, it’s a complete joke.
2. This is a distant second to my #1 gripe but I still don’t like the decision to go low floor on this line.
I also think there are a few too many stops along the line but perhaps we’ll see. I’ve ridden Portland’s LRT from the airport to Beaverton and it was a painful experience. Like riding the train at Heritage park or something - just crawling along.

Anyway, just had to get that off my chest again.
Merry Christmas everyone.

Totally agree with both of your points/issues as do many others. The people driving this project now are obsessed with making it a city-shaping endeavor. What they want isn't even close to what they pitched to the province and feds back in 2015. My reading on what's going on is that the province wants the fall civic election to result in major changes at city hall in Calgary which result in a fresh and saner look at what's being proposed. If that doesn't happen I can see the province forcing the city to either change course or making it every hard for them to reach downtown.

The low floor trains make no sense on a number of fronts but I take it they fit the city-shaping vision Druh and her gang are trying to achieve. Your point about the trains crawling along is something that needs to be made clear to the masses. When people find out that 50 km/h is likely going to be a realistic top speed support for this project will fall dramatically. I just can't see anyone who lives on the outer edges of the city wanting to take this line into the core at such slow speeds.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Totally agree with both of your points/issues as do many others. The people driving this project now are obsessed with making it a city-shaping endeavor. What they want isn't even close to what they pitched to the province and feds back in 2015. My reading on what's going on is that the province wants the fall civic election to result in major changes at city hall in Calgary which result in a fresh and saner look at what's being proposed. If that doesn't happen I can see the province forcing the city to either change course or making it every hard for them to reach downtown.

The low floor trains make no sense on a number of fronts but I take it they fit the city-shaping vision Druh and her gang are trying to achieve. Your point about the trains crawling along is something that needs to be made clear to the masses. When people find out that 50 km/h is likely going to be a realistic top speed support for this project will fall dramatically. I just can't see anyone who lives on the outer edges of the city wanting to take this line into the core at such slow speeds.

Well for starters I'm guessing the tens of thousands of daily riders who already pack the busses along the Centre St corridor will be first in line.... busses that also happen to travel at 50 km/h, don't have lane priority and stop far more often than the future Green Line will. Pretty sure those folks will be more than happy to upgrade their transit experience to LRT even if it doesn't shave a significant amount of time off their journey.

Should also point out that even at 'only' 50 km/h along Centre St the journey time from the future north Green Line terminus at Keystone to downtown will be 35 minutes which is an identical journey time from Seton even though the train will be travelling faster along the SE stretch and rivals the journey times from the terminus stations of the red line. Considering the red line needed to be expanded to 4 car trains a few years back to even allow people to get on the train past the terminus stations and nobody ever seems to question the ridership from Seton even though it'll have an identical journey time, I'm pretty sure Green Line north will do just fine for ridership.

[Corndogger]

Key station on Green Line could have unique street access



People wanting to catch a CTrain at one underground station on the Green Line downtown may have to head to the middle of the street to get to the platform.

The picture on the city's website shows the public entranceway to the future Seventh Avenue underground station as being in the middle of Second Street S.W.

The city says it's merely a conceptual rendering.

But according to one city councillor, it's an idea that the city could use if it can't negotiate access to the underground station through nearby buildings.

Coun. Druh Farrell said the future station will be an incredibly important one.

It's where the Green Line will intersect with the existing Red and Blue lines which run on the surface of Seventh Avenue downtown.

"I'm not all that fussed with the quality of the design of the entryway exactly. That can change," said Farrell.

"This is purely conceptual but they're looking at ways to connect these important lines together."

...

Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...881624?cmp=rss

[craner]

Green Line ‘logjam’ breaking up: Nenshi:

http://Green Line ‘logjam’ breaking up: Nenshi https://globalnews.ca/news/7719827/green-line-lrt-federal-funding-nenshi/

[accord1999]

While Mayor Nenshi seems hopeful, a big supporter of the Green Line, Jeff Binks now fears that it's too late to start construction this year even if Alberta gives the go-ahead.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...box=1616977850

But as I saw someone on Twitter noted, the Green Line Board is still looking for a CEO, COO and Construction Manager. The CEO is to:

“to provide oversight and direction to ensure the Green Line Program activities align with board priorities and vision for the program,” “will provide the vision to the team and has ultimate accountability for the program meeting its strategic objectives.”

and the Construction Manager:

“We’re looking for the CM (construction manager) to provide specialist constructability cost and schedule advice and identify construction work packages so they will be providing advice as we move through the design process,"

https://globalnews.ca/news/7684464/c...-line-ceo-coo/

It would seem risky not to have these important positions filled and fully briefed before starting construction. I did wonder why the Green Line needed more top executives when it already had a managing director, until I found out Allan Neill had quietly left the position last year.

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/allan-nei...g-pmp-230ba12a

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by accord1999

The CEO is to:

“provide oversight and direction to ensure the Green Line Program activities align with board priorities and vision for the program,” “will provide the vision to the team and has ultimate accountability for the program meeting its strategic objectives."

"vision", "strategic objectives" . . . sounds more like conceptual/preliminary design phase rather than construction!

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

"vision", "strategic objectives" . . . sounds more like conceptual/preliminary design phase rather than construction!

Yeah, it doesn't seem to align with the idea that the Green Line is ready to go immediately into construction if it weren't for the evil Ric McIver.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It would seem risky not to have these important positions filled and fully briefed before starting construction. I did wonder why the Green Line needed more top executives when it already had a managing director, until I found out Allan Neill had quietly left the position last year.

The greenline is having a difficult time finding its governance framework.

The Greenline started out as a department within roads and transportation. Then got its own Managing Director, then put an advisory board between the Managing Director and Council/CoC. The latest governance iteration looks like a private entity with CEO reporting to a board of directors and the City as the shareholder.

The downtown core phase 2A is still the stumbling block. Tell me how much phase 2A will cost and then construction can start. I would opine that with a delay such as what occurred over the past year, its probable the Greenline team knows that phase 2A such as to the extent that garbage binning phase 2B is the only way to keep the overall Greenline build under $5.5B. If true, then additional administrative layers between GL project team and both CoC & council is prudent protection for the inevitable over budget situation.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Cage

The downtown core phase 2A is still the stumbling block. Tell me how much phase 2A will cost and then construction can start. I would opine that with a delay such as what occurred over the past year, its probable the Greenline team knows that phase 2A such as to the extent that garbage binning phase 2B is the only way to keep the overall Greenline build under $5.5B. If true, then additional administrative layers between GL project team and both CoC & council is prudent protection for the inevitable over budget situation.

Pleeeease do this and wait until you can run the Center St. Portion underground.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Cage

The greenline is having a difficult time finding its governance framework.

The Greenline started out as a department within roads and transportation. Then got its own Managing Director, then put an advisory board between the Managing Director and Council/CoC. The latest governance iteration looks like a private entity with CEO reporting to a board of directors and the City as the shareholder.

Thanks, that clears up the confusion I was having with the seemingly sudden change in executive positions.

I would opine that with a delay such as what occurred over the past year, its probable the Greenline team knows that phase 2A such as to the extent that garbage binning phase 2B is the only way to keep the overall Greenline build under $5.5B.

That won't surprise me at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

The only cause of delay is the province seeming to insist on a fixed cost contract which contravenes best practices for risk sharing.

[Policy Wonk]

The main cause for delay is the provincial government doesn't trust the City of Calgary any further than one could throw Nenshi.

The province does not want the City of Calgary coming back looking for the province to bailout an unfinished Green Line and especially not in an election year when the NDP will immediately promise to do that.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The only cause of delay is the province seeming to insist on a fixed cost contract which contravenes best practices for risk sharing.

I'm no fan of the Provincial government, but I can't say I blame them if they don't want to be on the hook when the Green Line definitely goes over budget. Although, one way of ensuring that it does go overbudget is to delay it...

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The main cause for delay is the provincial government doesn't trust the City of Calgary any further than one could throw Nenshi.

The province does not want the City of Calgary coming back looking for the province to bailout an unfinished Green Line and especially not in an election year when the NDP will immediately promise to do that.

The project won't go bad that fast. Mid next mandate at best

[milomilo]

It's already effectively doubled in price (or halved in length) and is well behind schedule. Without shovels being in the ground now or contracts signed, by the time of the next City election it's going to be a prime target for rookie councillors wanting "to make tough decisions".

How long has it been now? 5 or 6 years since this project became "official". And all that has happened has been a constant salami slicing of downgrades and dithering on critical decisions. If we took a time machine back to the city of 2015 and told them what Calgary would actually get rather than what was promised, would there be as much support? No 42km of track, no train to the north, no train to the south, only a stub LRT from downtown to Quarry Park, opening in 2028, maybe.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again though, the line we could build for $5.5 billion over 42 km would be so compromised that you'd be able to say the same about whether Calgarians actually wanted it.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Again though, the line we could build for $5.5 billion over 42 km would be so compromised that you'd be able to say the same about whether Calgarians actually wanted it.

But that's not what we were sold. According to our representatives, we could have everything. For a little bit I was naive enough to believe them, but that was foolish of me. Since they either lied or were incompetent back then, why should we have any faith that they'll be able to deliver even their plan now? Even after it has been continually downgraded?

This is a textbook case of large scale project mismanagement - scope creep in the beginning without recognizing the cost increases, path dependence, delaying of decisions, followed by salami slicing of the project down to the point it doesn't achieve any of its original goals, and years late.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Again though, the line we could build for $5.5 billion over 42 km would be so compromised that you'd be able to say the same about whether Calgarians actually wanted it.

That was never really the case before or now. You can build one cheap ass line to the south or one to the north, but not both. Combining the lines led to all kinds of expensive and bad decisions. Starting a project now means locking in many of those bad decisions/costs, which is why the province is balking (although I expect MacIvor is secretly enjoying watching his old mayorial rival Nenshi twist in the wind as his signature project is on hold, likely until he is no longer mayor). Expect the green line to get shorter and terminate downtown. The budget is fixed, these delays are burning up project team manhour money, detailed engineering on the downtown sections will "firm up" those costs, emphasis on up, and construction costs are expected to escalate with all the coming government stimulus spending.

“I keep hearing from the province that, ‘Oh, we just have a few more questions that are being answered,’ which is fine, but get the lead out,” Mayor Naheed Nenshi said.

“It’s important to get this thing on the rails because we’re seeing huge cost inflation in the post-pandemic recovery, and every minute you wait is millions of dollars wasted.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/7731624/c...ction-delayed/

[Pegasus]

"Any hope of getting construction underway on Calgary’s Green Line LRT project has been dashed as city officials confirmed ground won’t be broken on the project this year as originally planned."

https://globalnews.ca/news/7731624/c...ction-delayed/