[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Empire

None of the negative nellies mentioned what a blight Grafton St. was for 35 years on downtown. How can a vibrant Convention Centre be worse than the weed infested abandoned lot that sat beside the Midtown for so long? What would infuse more life to the street? I didn't hear any suggestions.

Blight on downtown gone with the negative nellies:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.64607...EjDGQ85kPQ!2e0

I was tweeting a few folks during the public mtg. Someone mentioned what a great street Grafton was. I tweeted something along the lines of wtf? It was a dump and empty! Haha

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Empire

None of the negative nellies mentioned what a blight Grafton St. was for 35 years on downtown. How can a vibrant Convention Centre be worse than the weed infested abandoned lot that sat beside the Midtown for so long? What would infuse more life to the street? I didn't hear any suggestions.

Blight on downtown gone with the negative nellies:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.64607...EjDGQ85kPQ!2e0

YES. Exactly.

But that's just it. They're totally fine with a weed filled ugly lot! Because anything else, would mean change. Progress. Economic benefits. Even more [shudder] young people and families around. Why, that would ruin everything that is great about Halifax!

[ILoveHalifax]

Well it was a great street way back when it was lined with a row of low rental slums. Much like Jacob and Buckingham lest we forget.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by empire

none of the negative nellies mentioned what a blight grafton st. Was for 35 years on downtown. How can a vibrant convention centre be worse than the weed infested abandoned lot that sat beside the midtown for so long? What would infuse more life to the street? I didn't hear any suggestions.

Blight on downtown gone with the negative nellies:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.64607...ejdgq85kpq!2e0

but the loss of green space!! Save the trees!!

[teddifax]

It is amazing how some people almost romanticize how things used to be, when in actuality they were never that way or at least in the final years. Grafton St. was in total disrepair and I agree about the pictures of the streets replaced with Scotia Square, they were in horrible shape.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by teddifax

and I agree about the pictures of the streets replaced with Scotia Square, they were in horrible shape.

So were a lot of other neighbourhoods in the central city--but they've been rehabbed and restored. That was the great mistake of the mid 20th-century: Instead of fixing slummy but functional neighbourhoods, we overlooked the potential for revitalization and instead destroyed them, replacing them with monolithic, deadening, anti-urban mega-projects like Scotia Scquare and the Cogswell. Which are ultimately proving to be much greater obstacles to urban success than some rundown buildings that could have been repaired.

It's still a pertinent point--just because something is run-down doesn't mean it's fit for the scrap-heap.

Anyway, in this case, I do agree that Grafton was pretty crap in recent years--there wasn't anything there to fix or restore. We can debate the merits of privatizing a public space, but the old Grafton is not a loss.

[ns_kid]

Surely even the "heritage" lobby must appreciate the irony that their last line of defence against the Nova Centre development is to protect the sanctity of Grafton Street for the private automobile. Grafton Street -- a four-block long road to nowhere -- will continue to be a thoroughfare; it will no longer be a windswept parking lot, which is effectively the only function it has served since the Metro Centre was built 40 years ago.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

YES. Exactly.

But that's just it. They're totally fine with a weed filled ugly lot! Because anything else, would mean change. Progress. Economic benefits. Even more [shudder] young people and families around. Why, that would ruin everything that is great about Halifax!

To top it off... none of the complainers are actually spenders.

I would say 90 percent of people who spend money downtown are students. In fact, it probably drives the entire southend/downtown economy.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

So were a lot of other neighbourhoods in the central city--but they've been rehabbed and restored. That was the great mistake of the mid 20th-century: Instead of fixing slummy but functional neighbourhoods, we overlooked the potential for revitalization and instead destroyed them, replacing them with monolithic, deadening, anti-urban mega-projects like Scotia Scquare and the Cogswell. Which are ultimately proving to be much greater obstacles to urban success than some rundown buildings that could have been repaired.

It's still a pertinent point--just because something is run-down doesn't mean it's fit for the scrap-heap.

These areas were ready for the scrap heap though. They were one of the worst rat-infested, run-down, rotten areas in the city. It wasn't like NYC where the bones of the slums were in many cases old brownstones that were spectacular when renovated. These things were cheaply built wood-frame boxes that were never very special to begin with and then allowed to deteriorate for decades. There was nothing there worth saving. It would be like restoring Mulgrave Park in another 50 years.

[ILoveHalifax]

They were one of the most run down rat infested slums in Canada at the time.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

These areas were ready for the scrap heap though. They were one of the worst rat-infested, run-down, rotten areas in the city. It wasn't like NYC where the bones of the slums were in many cases old brownstones that were spectacular when renovated. These things were cheaply built wood-frame boxes that were never very special to begin with and then allowed to deteriorate for decades. There was nothing there worth saving. It would be like restoring Mulgrave Park in another 50 years.

Some, maybe, but seeing photos of what was knocked down for Cogswell, there was some brick and stone there too. And were even the wooden houses more rundown that they were around, say, Falkland and Creighton, at the time? Most of those have been well restored. (Maybe it was worse, I really don't know. I'm willing to believe there was a lot of junk in the area as well.)

[counterfactual]

I'm sure there was a mix, of bad and good. Cheap wood and some expensive brick. Squalor and something more than that.

Whatever was there, I'm sure, it is far better than the ugly post-apocalyptic nightmare currently inhabiting the Cogswell area.

I'd say the same for the ugly Barrington killing Scotia Square, but at least that still has some hope to be salvaged into something.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

These areas were ready for the scrap heap though. They were one of the worst rat-infested, run-down, rotten areas in the city. It wasn't like NYC where the bones of the slums were in many cases old brownstones that were spectacular when renovated. These things were cheaply built wood-frame boxes that were never very special to begin with and then allowed to deteriorate for decades. There was nothing there worth saving. It would be like restoring Mulgrave Park in another 50 years.

Buried in the Cogswell Interchange reports is an acknowledgement to those who fought against the Interchange (Ruffman was one of the many people) and it claims that the issue led to the formation of Heritage Trust and EAC. The same people were against demolishing what is now known as Historic Properties.
The Sixties were a period in N America and parts of Europe where the planners and politicians couldn't tear down older buildings fast enough and wanted to drive highways through city centres to allow traffic to move faster.
A well know journalist, Ian Nairn, wrote for The Observer on tplanning and livable towns/cities and he also appeared on BBC TV, the videos are available on youtube
I was often in Rotterdam in the sixties and they had restored the city centre from the destruction of WW2 with nice open plazas in shopping areas a short walk from the central railway station. Catered to pedestrians, not vehicles. Looking at the city on Google I cannot find those places, seem to have been replaced by taller buildings. Public Transit was easy because the staff all spoke English.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

I'm sure there was a mix, of bad and good. Cheap wood and some expensive brick. Squalor and something more than that.

Whatever was there, I'm sure, it is far better than the ugly post-apocalyptic nightmare currently inhabiting the Cogswell area.

I'd say the same for the ugly Barrington killing Scotia Square, but at least that still has some hope to be salvaged into something.

The 1957 report used to justify the clearance actully looks at the area in terms of Health and welfare and crime statistics as well as building condition. The cogswell/scotia square lands had some of the highest numbers of Relief cases as well as juvenile court appearances, and criminal code incidents per acre. As far as building condition goes, 30% or more were considered deficient based n standards outlined in a city ordinance.

there is a post coming on Builthalifax about this report.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

The 1957 report used to justify the clearance actully looks at the area in terms of Health and welfare and crime statistics as well as building condition. The cogswell/scotia square lands had some of the highest numbers of Relief cases as well as juvenile court appearances, and criminal code incidents per acre. As far as building condition goes, 30% or more were considered deficient based n standards outlined in a city ordinance.

there is a post coming on Builthalifax about this report.

Fair enough, but I suspect that in the 1950s, some of those "city standards" probably had more than mere planning aims behind them; probably some stereotyping of the people living in various areas as well. "This is a crime riddled area; squalor. Let's bulldoze it".

Similar to what happened with Africville.

Anyways, will keep an eye out for the post! Looking forward to it.

[Drybrain]

There was (and I guess still is) a large number of policy makers who figure that eradicating poverty is as simple as eradicating the slum.

Anyway, what's done is done.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I was often in Rotterdam in the sixties and they had restored the city centre from the destruction of WW2 with nice open plazas in shopping areas a short walk from the central railway station. Catered to pedestrians, not vehicles. Looking at the city on Google I cannot find those places, seem to have been replaced by taller buildings. Public Transit was easy because the staff all spoke English.

Those places are still likely there, or in a different format but still as open and walkable. The Netherlands is one of the best examples of development because of the "polder model"... this is quite opposite to the battles between the public, government and private sector we have in Halifax... our development debate is more akin to a London or NY on a much smaller scale.

Alot of the nonsense that goes on in Halifax simply doesn't happen.

That being said, Rotterdam isn't the most fun city in the country

[worldlyhaligonian]

So, back to NC. Is this a complete go ahead now?

Or are there other b/s meetings, hearings, public input, bureaucracy?

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Similar to what happened with Africville.

this is also the report that advocated for that.
When you look at the maps, the Long empty block of land bounded by North, Barrington , and the dockyard; Cogswell and Scotia Square lands, and Africville were all cleared as a result of this report.

[Ziobrop]

As of yesterday, the last bit of the bottom of the hole is covered.
Stay Up to date on progress at http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/