Hyperloops in Canada

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly.

I see Hyperloop as a Rohrschach test of gullibility.

Thinking about it for more than 5 minutes with some high school level physics would let you come to the conclusion that it's a pipedream.

As someone with College level engineering, I can say that it is a literal pipe dream. The Shinkansen was more expensive than regular rail, but it was worth it. Maybe the next thing is this. Wouldn't it be great if we were on the forefront of technology, and for once, we benefited from it?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

1) Lots of air handling units.

Which cost a lot to buy and a ton of energy to power.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

3) The same thing that happens when that happens on regular rail/airplanes.

Wrong. You get a shock wave traveling at Mach that will hit the pod inside. A pod not designed to encounter supersonic flows.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The tube won't be paper thin. It needs to combat the crushing forces of the atmosphere on it.

Adding yet more cost. And issues with thermal expansion.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Thermal expansion? You mean like what happened when a bunch of engineers built a bridge that is the only road connection between eastern and western Canada?

Now imagine that happening to the tube.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You sure you have an engineering degree? Doesn't sound like it.

I'll leave the audience to judge who understands basic physics.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As someone with College level engineering, I can say that it is a literal pipe dream. The Shinkansen was more expensive than regular rail, but it was worth it. Maybe the next thing is this. Wouldn't it be great if we were on the forefront of technology, and for once, we benefited from it?

The big question to me is why we can't just have normal functional infrastructure that is maintained and incrementally improved. In Europe this includes networks of 200 km/h track and multimodal stations that connect up intercity rail with urban rail. In many countries there is also widespread electrification.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As someone with College level engineering, I can say that it is a literal pipe dream. The Shinkansen was more expensive than regular rail, but it was worth it. Maybe the next thing is this. Wouldn't it be great if we were on the forefront of technology, and for once, we benefited from it?

Building Maglev? Forefront of technology.

Funding Hyperloop? Being a sucker.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Building Maglev? Forefront of technical technology.

Funding Hyperloop? Being a sucker.

Hyperloop might work underground (at least it's more believable), but then say goodbye to any illusion of cheapness.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Which cost a lot to buy and a ton of energy to power.

Where did I state this will be cheap? This will be expensive, but it might end up being worth it.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Wrong. You get a shock wave traveling at Mach that will hit the pod inside. A pod not designed to encounter supersonic flows.

First off, in what world is Bubba be armed in a pod?
I'd say about the same as when an airplane hits a tower. In other words, you are already screwed.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Adding yet more cost. And issues with thermal expansion.

Yup. Just like the Shinkansen when it first came out was expensive.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Now imagine that happening to the tube.

Air filling both sides and the pod comes to a stop.... Likely some injuries, but not likely deaths.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'll leave the audience to judge who understands basic physics.

Sure. Slowly people like urbanski and you fall off to the side as more people see some things that people like me are saying are correct.


This will not be cheap.
This will not be easy.

However, if it works, and works well, it could change transportation on this world as we know it. The Shinkansen did. This could to.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Hyperloop might work underground (at least it's more believable), but then say goodbye to any illusion of cheapness.

It isn't cheap in any configuration. You're combining two expensive technologies (vacuum tubes and Maglev trains) and somehow expecting the sum to be cheaper. And the requirement for straightness necessitates a ton of grade separation. Maybe there's a business case to do this for cargo somewhere. I can't see this being human rated and economically competitive in our lifetime.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

The big question to me is why we can't just have normal functional infrastructure that is maintained and incrementally improved. In Europe this includes networks of 200 km/h track and multimodal stations that connect up intercity rail with urban rail. In many countries there is also widespread electrification.

Because our country is unwilling to pay for it. We are willing to pay for roads, but rails are seen as not worth it.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Building Maglev? Forefront of technology.

Funding Hyperloop? Being a sucker.

We have Maglev in Canada? Sweet!

Originally Posted by milomilo

Hyperloop might work underground (at least it's more believable), but then say goodbye to any illusion of cheapness.

Underground does make the most sense. Anyone thinking it'll be cheaper is silly.

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree. I don't think there's anything particularly difficult or impractical about improving rail in Canada in terms of engineering or funding requirements. In fact there's low-hanging fruit because service is so bad. But it's not a priority and there are political roadblocks.

Why was Via cut back in 1989? Political.
Why is HFR being touted? Political
Why is a hyperloop being touted in AB? Political.
Why is the Corridor back up and running but the Canadian are still down? Political

There are of course other reasons, but no one wants to spend the political capital to do anything unless it will get them voted in next year.

Originally Posted by milomilo

I shudder a little at the thought of HFR being scrapped for HSR, which would subsequently get bogged down and scrapped in the end anyway.

Sadly, it is a possibility. Like I would say while in the navy about new ships - "I'll believe it when I cross the brow, put my stuff in a locker. We start the engines, untie, and leave the harbour for weeks/months on end. Till then, we are not getting new ships." In my 8 years, they never delivered one ship. The did get an interim ship, the MV Astrix because my ship caught fire and was not reparable.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Where did I state this will be cheap? This will be expensive, but it might end up being worth it.

It would be substantially more expensive than building a Maglev. While having a fraction of the capacity, because of pod sizing requirements.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

First off, in what world is Bubba be armed in a pod?

Who said Bubba was inside the pod?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I'd say about the same as when an airplane hits a tower. In other words, you are already screwed.

When a plane crashes, it usually doesn't take out the airport as well.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yup. Just like the Shinkansen when it first came out was expensive.

Building HSR hasn't gotten substantially cheaper since.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Air filling both sides and the pod comes to a stop.... Likely some injuries, but not likely deaths.

You actually did college engineering and think hitting a Mach 1 shockwave will just give you bumps and scrapes?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Sure. Slowly people like urbanski and you fall off to the side as more people see some things that people like me are saying are correct.

There's a reason not one serious engineering company has put in money into Hyperloop. It's all college kids and techbros having fun with money from gullible investors.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This will not be cheap.
This will not be easy.

This will not be economically feasible either.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

However, if it works, and works well, it could change transportation on this world as we know it. The Shinkansen did. This could to.

The Shinkansen took everything that was known about rail engineering and applied it with careful and methodical experimentation. They didn't take some dude's napkin fever dream and pour money into it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It would be substantially more expensive than building a Maglev. While having a fraction of the capacity, because of pod sizing requirements.

How many people would the maximum size be?
What is the maximum capacity Maglev in operation?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who said Bubba was inside the pod?

Why would it be paper thin? We are not talking model aircraft. We are talking trains.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

When a plane crashes, it usually doesn't take out the airport as well.

True, but it can take out 2 towers in the middle of a major city.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Building HSR hasn't gotten substantially cheaper since.

I never said it would be cheaper. I know it is not cheaper. This is why I haven't ever suggested HSR in my ideas. With finite money, there are other places to put the money to.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You actually did college engineering and think hitting a Mach 1 shockwave will just give you bumps and scrapes?

In order for that shockwave to happen, the entire volume of air that is evacuated would need to rush in. The size of that hole would need to be much larger than most anything could do to it.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's a reason not one serious engineering company has put in money into Hyperloop. It's all college kids and techbros having fun with money from gullible investors.

Just like the electric car? Or the internet? Or the cellular telephone?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This will not be economically feasible either.

Show me the data on that.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Shinkansen took everything that was known about rail engineering and applied it with careful and methodical experimentation. They didn't take some dude's napkin fever dream and pour money into it.

Building a 20km test track is exactly the same thing. They have not been awarded enough money to build the entire line.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How many people would the maximum size be?

The Alpha doc had 28 pax per pod.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...loop-alpha.pdf

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What is the maximum capacity Maglev in operation?

Hyperloop =\= Maglev

Maglev trains don't have the same limitations on car size or number of cars.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why would it be paper thin? We are not talking model aircraft. We are talking trains.

Aside from cost, you have an engineering diploma, you should be able to figure out the problem with a thicker walled tube.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I never said it would be cheaper. I know it is not cheaper. This is why I haven't ever suggested HSR in my ideas. With finite money, there are other places to put the money to.

Which is why wasting time and money on this is pointless. But yet here you are....

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In order for that shockwave to happen, the entire volume of air that is evacuated would need to rush in. The size of that hole would need to be much larger than most anything could do to it.

You need to read those College Engineering textbooks again.....

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Just like the electric car? Or the internet? Or the cellular telephone?

You mean the stuff developed by engineers at DARPA and Bell Labs. Electronics has a cost curve. Construction? Less so.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Show me the data on that.

Common sense is enough. But if you need to read:

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/1..._12308_DS1.pdf

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Building a 20km test track is exactly the same thing. They have not been awarded enough money to build the entire line.

You should look up how many test tracks there are already.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Underground does make the most sense. Anyone thinking it'll be cheaper is silly.

One of the big stated reasons for Hyperloop in the first place was that it was going to be cheaper than HSR, because reasons. This was obviously bullshit, but without that selling point the motive to build it goes away before you even think of the myriad technical reasons.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

One of the big stated reasons for Hyperloop in the first place was that it was going to be cheaper than HSR, because reasons. This was obviously bullshit, but without that selling point the motive to build it goes away before you even think of the myriad technical reasons.

Exactly. Musk first pitched Hyperloop when it was announced that CalHSR was going to hit $70 billion. They put out the napkin idea in the Alpha doc in a few weeks. And clearly didn't talk to any construction engineers on how much something like that would cost. Musk actually said Hyperloop was going to be 10x cheaper than High Speed Rail. And that's before we even get to the 3-4x higher capacity of HSR and Maglev over Hyperloop. But there's a lot of gullible techbros out there willing to substitute faith for physics and economics.

Musk knows he's spewing bullshit. Which is why he didn't bother putting any of his own money or his time into developing Hyperloop. He's happy to let college kids all over the world play with the idea. And knows there are gullible governments and investors happy to toss money at the dream over actual tangible tech. If people want something to actually look up to, they should look up the Chuo Shinkansen. Now that is impressive.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Alpha doc had 28 pax per pod.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...loop-alpha.pdf

Hyperloop =\= Maglev

Maglev trains don't have the same limitations on car size or number of cars.

There is a theoretical speed that a train can do before a sonic boom happens. Once it reaches that speed, damage to surrounding things can happen. By sticking it in a tunnel, and by removing the air that is responsible for the sonic boom, you reduce damage.

For example, the speed of sound on Mars is higher due to the lower air pressure.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Aside from cost, you have an engineering diploma, you should be able to figure out the problem with a thicker walled tube.

Which is why wasting time and money on this is pointless. But yet here you are....

You need to read those College Engineering textbooks again.....

You have yet to try to say anything other than "look it up".
I have pointed out things like friction, air pressure and other simple engineering theories. You remind me of the snot nosed urbanski who has 5 years in a dead end location in Via who was a company man.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You mean the stuff developed by engineers at DARPA and Bell Labs. Electronics has a cost curve. Construction? Less so.

Common sense is enough. But if you need to read:

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/1..._12308_DS1.pdf

You should look up how many test tracks there are already.

Why did we not build the Avro Arrow? It had nothing to do with cost or engineering.

Originally Posted by milomilo

One of the big stated reasons for Hyperloop in the first place was that it was going to be cheaper than HSR, because reasons. This was obviously bullshit, but without that selling point the motive to build it goes away before you even think of the myriad technical reasons.

Well, yes, but no.
Lets say we have a line that goes to all major cities in Canada. Lets say it is a total of 10,000 km so that it can zigzag as needed.

Right now, HSR only goes around 300km/hr. That is over 30 hours for the network.
Hyperloop has been touted at 1000km/hr. That means the same line can do it in 10 hours.

So, if you argue for a higher cost for HSR, then you should also be arguing for a hyperloop.

The costs are astronomical for either. But lets be fair, nothing will get built because we cannot even serve most Canadians by a slow train.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly. Musk first pitched Hyperloop when it was announced that CalHSR was going to hit $70 billion. They put out the napkin idea in the Alpha doc in a few weeks. And clearly didn't talk to any construction engineers on how much something like that would cost. Musk actually said Hyperloop was going to be 10x cheaper than High Speed Rail. And that's before we even get to the 3-4x higher capacity of HSR and Maglev over Hyperloop. But there's a lot of gullible techbros out there willing to substitute faith for physics and economics.

Musk knows he's spewing bullshit. Which is why he didn't bother putting any of his own money or his time into developing Hyperloop. He's happy to let college kids all over the world play with the idea. And knows there are gullible governments and investors happy to toss money at the dream over actual tangible tech. If people want something to actually look up to, they should look up the Chuo Shinkansen. Now that is impressive.

Please explain how the hyperloop breaks a law of physics. Nothing I have heard of or read up on shows that it breaks any of them.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Please explain how the hyperloop breaks a law of physics. Nothing I have heard of or read up on shows that it breaks any of them.

Did I say it broke the laws of physics?

Read carefully. And slowly.

Keep posting. And all the insults and personal attacks coming. I assure you that this is making you look more credible and stable with every post.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Did I say it broke the laws of physics?

Read carefully. And slowly.

Yes. Yes you have.

You have told me to reread my college engineering books. That is code for "you didn't understand them the first time".

So, please tell me how I am wrong about the engineering.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, please tell me how I am wrong about the engineering.

I've done so. Several times. So have others. We can't help it, if you don't have the scientific, technical and economic literacy to keep up with the discussion. Not to mention you're too lazy to actually read references provided and just jump to circular discussions and insults, instead of learning.

Be sure to add a Hyperloop section in that report you're drafting for your MP. It'll help you look smart. I promise.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes. Yes you have.

You have told me to reread my college engineering books. That is code for "you didn't understand them the first time".

So, please tell me how I am wrong about the engineering.

I know this looks clickbaity, but it's a great summary of all the reasons it's vapourware.

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

Seen the video before. And it is a fantastic summary of all the problems with Hyperloop. 30 mins might be beyond the attention span of swimmer_spe though.....

Fundamentally, Hyperloop violates the most basic principle of simplicity. It's a solution that involves a massive increase in complexity for very little in actual gain over existing HSR and Maglev technologies.

There's some things he didn't mention in that video. Musk said 30 mins from LA to SF. In reality, their proposal was 30 mins from Burbank to Oakland. Not "downtown" on either side. So all the added inconveniences of driving to an airport. The other issue not mentioned in that video is the risk acceptance for certification. For passenger aviation, designs and modifications aren't certified unless they can show a probable fatality risk no greater than 1 in 10 million. The amount of technological maturation, testing and demonstration needed to prove this on every single Hyperloop (unlike airplanes every single one is different), would kill the idea.

To date, the fastest Hyperloop has achieved is 463 kph. And that's for a cart on a test track. They aren't close to carrying a human. Or building a full sized pod in a full sized tube to test out how they are going to overcome the Kantrowitz limit. Compare that to the Chuo Shinkansen. Plain old full sized Maglev train that does 500 kph on the test track regularly and maxed out at over 600 kph. No Guinness Record vacuum chamber required. And it has actually carried 200 000 humans on test rides.

[Truenorth00]

The guy who did that Hyperloop video has an updated one that is even more entertaining.

• Video Link

I always wonder how people fall for such bullshit. But then discussions like this thread show how gullible people really are.