DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[rds70]

New renderings of the Rossonian project with the modern addition between the historic building and The Hooper:

[FunctionForm]

That's terrific.

[BG918]

The Rossonian may just be my favorite new project in Denver. What an improvement that will be at Five Points.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by ams5280

This particular Holly Street project is what got me incensed about housing policy in Denver, particularly given that Amanda Sawyer, a San Francisco transplant who vehemently opposed this particular project and cites it as her primary reason for joining the City Council race, has a fair shot of winning District 5. I'm sorry, but I already witnessed in Boulder and am now witnessing in my current community how out-of-state transplant homeowners who bought a home here joined local politics and are unwilling to listen to--if not downright combative against--renters.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of anxiety and frustration in Denver with developers in general, growing traffic and density specifically which has all happened in a relatively short period of time.

You would have thought that Holly Street proposal was the end of the world. Yet, you act like building three more homes than the twenty units the builder is currently entitled to do would make all the difference in the world. You're all nuts.

Stonemans_rowJ points to areas with a variety of infill and existing diversity which is happening right now. Personally, I thrive on diversity but I'm not everybody and in many cases peoples feelings aren't even about diversity per se.

Denver is not Boulder; it doesn't have a wall around it; that comparison makes no sense.

Originally Posted by BG918

The Rossonian may just be my favorite new project in Denver. What an improvement that will be at Five Points.

I couldn't be happier that The Rossonian will be preserved in a way that works so well and I know Mr. Big Shot is certainly happy too.

[ams5280]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

you act like building three more homes than the twenty units the builder is currently entitled to do would make all the difference in the world.

The type of housing does matter. Rather than homes oriented for families, the building would likely be apartments or studios aimed at a different target audience, and may not be for-sale. Call it a desire for more diversity.

Though I do really hope the developer maximizes the existing zoning.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Denver is not Boulder; it doesn't have a wall around it; that comparison makes no sense.

I didn't mention greenbelts (although growth Boulder and Broomfield counties growth might be in somewhat influenced by the green wall - neither here nor there), but rather the attitude by the home-owners and some local elected officials that the needs of renters are less important, troubling when a RentCafe report found more than 47% of Denver residents renting. I've seen a lot of anti-renter sentiment in Colorado Springs as well, especially related to the city's proposed ADU ordinance.

-

Off the soapbox, I agree that the preservation of the Rossonian is a huge win for Denver. With the Hooper next door and the Lydian on the next block, I like the way this stretch of Welton is going.

[TakeFive]

Wow; How cool is this?

Who doesn't like a Cool Downtown - with skyscrapers and a 24-7 vibrant life?
And new neighborhoods like Denver Unions Station, Riverfront Park, RiNo etc etc

Following the Great Recession everything changed

We've become a renter-nation (for reasons) and those with access to all the capital use Algorithms and Internal Rates of Return analysis when deciding what and where to build. Downtown Denver has been this cycles beneficiary of this and that's worth celebrating.

It's been an ongoing tech-driven and overall economic growth that has enabled renters to pay increasing rents which has enabled developers to continue building even with escalating costs of construction. That's why downtown continues to grow.

For now, the continued tech migration to the cloud, the ongoing growth in IoT and AI should continue to power the economy. I'm seeing some tech mergers and consolidation; at some point the curve will flatten; someday the party will peter out. Perhaps a protracted recession will be the result and bring down the cost of living. I wouldn't hold your breath for that happening anytime soon however.

BREAKING: Denver builds thousands of Entry Level housing

I'll ballpark guess that 60% of the new apartments built downtown are today's version of entry level housing; maybe 10-15% are designated affordable and the balance go upscale from there.

Back in their day neighborhoods like Virginia Vale, Virginia Village and University Hills were developed to provide affordable 'starter' homes. Many nearby neighborhoods offered 'move-up' housing that was still reasonably affordable.

Those neighborhoods still exist as do the neighborhoods of Berkeley, Sunnyside, Chaffee Park, Sun Valley, Val Verde, Barnum, Westwood, Mar Lee, Harvey Park, Overland, South Platte, College View, South, Rosedale, Holly Hills, Bible Park, Goldsmith, Indian Creek, Hampden, Hampden Heights, Dayton Triangle, Windsor, East Colfax, Montclair, South Park Hill, North Park Hill, Park Hill, Northeast Park Hill and more that provide a great variety of choices.

Maybe instead of claiming that the glass is empty consider recognizing that the glass is at least half full and taking advantage of that?

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by rds70

New renderings of the Rossonian project with the modern addition between the historic building and The Hooper:

What were they thinking? Would have been so much easier to recycle the land-barge designs down the street on Welton. Pretty sure Kephart has a terrible design they have been recycling to help ensure design monotony and continuity down the welton corridor.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by ams5280

This is something that has always made me wonder. Houses keep getting larger as families get smaller. The average single-family home in 1950 was under 1000 sq ft. My mom grew up--family of 5--in Hilltop in a typical 1950's ranch. Now there's 6000 sq ft home for $3.5 million across the street. Us 'not adults' just want the same kind of homes our parents had, not large homes well above the price range of any young family (Avg home price in 1960 is equivalent to $98k in today's dollars).

It's no wonder the average age of first-time home-buyers continues to trend upward, the target keeps moving.

Lots of things about the 1950s I don't want back. The math for me is simple - kids want their own bedrooms these days. Could they live without one? Sure. But it's not exactly a billionaire's reach to want that. So that's 3-4 bedrooms.

Add in an office room - because many of us in the professional class work from home these days, if not all the time, a significant portion of it. (I could go crazy and want two quiet spaces because women work now too - but in the interest of staying faithful to the 1950s ideal, I will assume only the mans needs a place for a computer and papers and stuff. The woman can stay in the kitchen - even in the 21st Century, we need one of those.)

I suppose we could share one bathroom upstairs, but to serve five people - two of whom have to work and shower in a tight morning routine (unlike the 1950s, when I assume the woman could take a lounging bath bubbled up with Avon soap at 10:00am while watching her soaps) - I'll be greedy and ask for two bathrooms upstairs. And that biggest of luxuries - a downstairs 1/2 bath - I'd like that too. Just in case I invite people over and have a human relationship that isn't online or at a hipster bar.

So now I am at 4 bed, 1 den/office, 3 bath. Put that into a floorplan and you're looking at 2,200-2,400 square feet. Bordering on Mar-a-Lago proportions, I realize. Call me greedy, but we all know I will not be voting for Bernie (even new and improved millionaire Bernie) anytime soon anyways.

Oh, and add in a basement. At some point, we started counting below-grade square footage in our home specs. That, I would agree, is a bit of a racket. But it's also how a 2,400 square foot home from the 1990s becomes a 3,600 square foot home in the 2010s. (Even if that same basement was finished in the 1990s.) Blame the realtors for that. 6% of 3,600 is better than 6% of 2,400. Still waiting for some disruptive tech bro to put the realtors out of business. I suppose if you weren't all homeless and overworked and underappreciated you would've gotten to that already.

But I am not a first-time homeowner either. That's not who I - or anybody else scraping, for that matter - is targeting. There is no god-given right to a single-family home as a starter home. Your options are condos or the suburbs. And I am all for building both. Preserving 1950s ranches in the City is just plain stupid.

And I would build an ADU if I was allowed. I submitted a pre-app for a re-zone, but the City told me not to bother, I'd be wasting my money.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

CDOT looks into passenger rail linking Fort Collins to Pueblo
Where do you all think a reasonable Denver stop would be? Perhaps 61st and Pena station to connect the front range to the A line.

https://www.outtherecolorado.com/sta...l-in-colorado/

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

CDOT looks into passenger rail linking Fort Collins to Pueblo
Where do you all think a reasonable Denver stop would be?

Umm, Union Station. Nothing else is reasonable.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

What were they thinking? Would have been so much easier to recycle the land-barge designs down the street on Welton. Pretty sure Kephart has a terrible design they have been recycling to help ensure design monotony and continuity down the welton corridor.

It's not as terrible as the land barges, but it is disappointing to me. Similar to the Confluence tower (signature location, but no signature architecture). This is a a great location, crying out for some really special design.
What we've gotten, is fairly uninspired, but could be worse (yes Tennyson Street Corridor, I am talking about you). Would have loved to see something more modern to add to the street, as opposed to a vague clone of what's already on Welton.

Love stuff like this in RiNo:



Or Platte Fifteen:





Or One Platte:

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

CDOT looks into passenger rail linking Fort Collins to Pueblo
Where do you all think a reasonable Denver stop would be? Perhaps 61st and Pena station to connect the front range to the A line.

https://www.outtherecolorado.com/sta...l-in-colorado/

Why not Union Station? The main north-south cargo line used by all the coal trains (which I think is what it is likely to be used) does indeed go by Union Station, directly to the West. I assume figuring out how to run the proposed passenger train on it and feed it into Union Station ain't rocket science. Now whether passenger traffic on that line is compatible with current uses is a different question.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Why not Union Station? The main north-south cargo line used by all the coal trains (which I think is what it is likely to be used) does indeed go by Union Station, directly to the West. I assume figuring out how to run the proposed passenger train on it and feed it into Union Station ain't rocket science. Now whether passenger traffic on that line is compatible with current uses is a different question.

I suppose that I envisioned this potential passenger rail to be very high speed and low frequency. With that framing in mind, pushing it a little east seemed easier logistically but I know less than nothing when it comes to civil engineering.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I suppose that I envisioned this potential passenger rail to be very high speed and low frequency. With that framing in mind, pushing it a little east seemed easier logistically but I know less than nothing when it comes to civil engineering.

I actually would have expected the station to be out near DIA to facilitate speed like you said...preferably at a station that can directly transfer to the A-line.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I suppose that I envisioned this potential passenger rail to be very high speed and low frequency. With that framing in mind, pushing it a little east seemed easier logistically but I know less than nothing when it comes to civil engineering.

Try diesel trains on existing freight tracks. CDOT's not envisioning a massive HSR network and whatever fly-by-night entity pitches such an idea should be laughed out of the room.

Any proposal that costs more than a couple billion for a north-south line is DOA.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

I actually would have expected the station to be out near DIA to facilitate speed like you said...preferably at a station that can directly transfer to the A-line.

Exactly; a hub area at the budding Aerotropolis makes complete sense.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Exactly; a hub area at the budding Aerotropolis makes complete sense.

I would also be curious how much of the non-semitruck I-25 traffic from Ft. Collins and Colorado Springs goes to the airport vs downtown Denver. DIA is a much higher service airport than frankly anything else in our entire time zone so I would imagine that residents in Ft. Collins, Colorado Springs, and Pueblo would make decent use out of a high speed service to DIA.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Try diesel trains on existing freight tracks. CDOT's not envisioning a massive HSR network and whatever fly-by-night entity pitches such an idea should be laughed out of the room.

Any proposal that costs more than a couple billion for a north-south line is DOA.

IIRC, higher speed rail (125 mph) from Fort Collins to Pueblo was estimated at around $7 billion. Which, frankly, is not that much (considering that FasTracks were $6 billions) for a service that is badly needed.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by mishko27

IIRC, higher speed rail (125 mph) from Fort Collins to Pueblo was estimated at around $7 billion. Which, frankly, is not that much (considering that FasTracks were $6 billions) for a service that is badly needed.

CDOT has a statewide backlog of ~$6B in highway maintenance and improvement projects after the legislature scrambled up about $3B in. There's no way anything like the RMRA HSR idea will end up being the first rail project that CDOT might do out the gate. Think Utah's Frontrunner or New Mexico's New Mexico Rail Runner Express. So we're talking about a service that runs on existing tracks, where we either share the track with BNSF and UP or buy them out and relocate the freight trains (which isn't happening any bloody time soon), and can be implemented for a minimal amount of funding and slowly scaled up.

[PLANSIT]

This study is for conventional commuter rail. There already is a HSR study and it’s a pipe dream.