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  #21  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
What about:
Richmond City Centre?
Upper Lonsdale?
Metrotown?
Downtown New Westminster?
Scarborough City Centre?
Mississauga City Centre?
The new pseudo-downtown planned for Vaughn?
Hull (the old part of Gatineau with all the federal buildings)?

Hull does not belong on this list.

It's not a pop-up artificial downtown at all.

It's a traditional organic downtown whose bones are over 200 years old. Older than downtown Ottawa in fact.

It's crappy and struggling for sure but the basic trappings of a classic downtown are there.

It's no different than the downtown of many medium-sized cities in Canada and the US. Busy (pre-pandemic) with people, especially office workers, during the weekday. Quiet on evenings and weekends with small pockets of nightlife. A small residential population that has some services typical of a downtown but which still fall way short of what you would expect and want.
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  #22  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 12:17 PM
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Newfoundland follows the national trend on this, with even worse results. Outside of St. John's, there are a couple of cities and towns on the island with functional downtowns - Corner Brook, Grand Falls-Windsor, even little Stephenville - but they're very small. In Manitoba, even random little towns like Beausejour had a core comparable to Corner Brook, with a fraction the population.

The only community I'm aware of that is trying to build a downtown from scratch is Conception Bay South (former farmland and cabins on the edge of St. John's, now a bedroom community nearing 30,000 people). But their DREAM, their VISION, is a four-land stroad lined by parking lots and big box stores. That's what they're aiming for. So... no thanks.

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  #23  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 12:30 PM
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Sim City 2000 and Transport Tycoon were my favorites game 20 years ago.
I think a lot of the oldtimers on SSP got the city planning bug playing Sim City 2000 or Sim City 4. I certainly did, and then found SSP by accident. Some people went even further. Sam Austin in Halifax was involved in modding Sim City 4, and then I discovered him again on SSP. He then became involved in city politics and is now a two term councillor on HRM regional council. I know of several SSP Atlantic members who have run for city council, a couple successfully.
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  #24  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 12:38 PM
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Modern planning and the accommodation of the automobile effectively prevent the emergence of the properties we associate with "downtown". This goes down to the street grid, not to mention the scale of the individual buildings and lot sizes. "Downtown" is effectively a cluster of varied things, and the nature and scale of the sort of large complexes built in "pseudo-downtowns", or at areas that support large-scale development with no pre-existing, fine-grained fabric, mean that these areas top out at something like the Vegas Strip or Sheikh Zayed Road.

Here in Stockholm, there is an area called Hammarby Sjöstad that is essentially a central urban neighbourhood built from scratch, and arguably built to get beyond the "Mississauga" issues. It incorporates a lot of the thinking we celebrate here, from its mixed-use buildings to the tram that services it, but at the end of the day it still sort of sits in an uncanny valley.

As you can see, it's pretty good:



But it's not the same as neighbouring Södermalm, and real estate prices reflect this:



Why is this? The planning is top-notch. But look at the street-level experience:



It's just a bit off, isn't it? Tram and everything. But the scale is wide, and overly rigid. It's all there, but in terms of "stuff per 100 metre walk", it's not good. It's pretty bad.



Now look at Söder, and keep in mind, this is Sweden. It ain't the Lower East Side.



It's a pretty standard neighbourhood high street, but the storefronts are much narrower, the buildings somewhat more varied and intricate -- there is the feeling of more going on.

A few blocks down that street, at Götgatan, a pedestrianized street in an old area heightens the contrast even further:



Söder isn't the old centre. In fact, it's the Hammarby Sjöstad of the late 19th century.

The old part looks like this: -- much, much more intricate:



Söder was a suburb. But it was a suburb built when most people got around by foot. And at the end of the day, TOD, mixed-use, whatever, that's the issue. The scale must favour the pedestrian. Narrow buildings and streets. It's so simple but we just can't do it anymore.

Is it outmoded, then? I don't know -- price/m2 is reliably higher in Södermalm and similar areas than in Hammarby Sjöstad. A lot higher. People who are alive right now, with modern lives, find Söder more attractive, just as they do with Greenwich Village and the Marais. But we can't do it. Not even to make money!

Hence "pseudo".

Last edited by kool maudit; May 9, 2021 at 12:48 PM.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 12:49 PM
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Someone from Toronto could make the same comparison with SouthCore/CityPlace and Liberty Village, I'm sure. These are "Hammarby Sjöstads".
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  #26  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 2:14 PM
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A bit of a special case, but Lac-Mégantic’s “new downtown” looks very underwhelming from what I’ve seennon Google Streetview. Large setbacks with too much lawn, bland and overly large parks and s number of parking lots abutting the main street... It feels like they replaced their historic downtown with suburban-style development.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 2:44 PM
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Quite the contrary - most of Liberty Village is actually on an entirely new street grid and isn’t “old”. Basically anything east of Atlantic isn’t on historic street networks.

LV is also not super super urban - but it’s really come to its own over the last decade and is a key centre in the city now.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 2:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le calmar View Post
A bit of a special case, but Lac-Mégantic’s “new downtown” looks very underwhelming from what I’ve seennon Google Streetview. Large setbacks with too much lawn, bland and overly large parks and s number of parking lots abutting the main street... It feels like they replaced their historic downtown with suburban-style development.
Disappointing but not surprising. This has become kind of the default mode for development... which is ironic because the best downtowns tend to be built on a traditional model with grid streets and classic storefronts, etc., but no one actually seems to want to build those anymore.

It's sort of like suburban development in most areas... you can have any variation of development possible except for the grid. That is simply not allowed.
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  #29  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 2:59 PM
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The setbacks seems to be the biggest thing - these pseudo downtowns all have buildings way too far back. What's so hard about buildings flush against the sidewalk which in turn is flush against the road? Why is that so hard to build in today's times?
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  #30  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 3:14 PM
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One question would be what is a downtown? In Calgary our downtown very much is one, but it's the surrounding districts that are vibrant and urban.

Canary Wharf would be an example of willing a downtown into existence over not very long at all, with its own metro system larger than many cities.





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  #31  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 4:14 PM
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It's a no brainer for older cities that have amalgamated with other ones, but the lines get a little blurred with calling gathering areas in newer expanding far flung suburbs Pseudo downtowns..In Ottawa/Gat., The Quebec side (Hull) has a true downtown in the classic sense, but even though Kanata in Ottawa's West markets the Centrum as a downtown, it's really just a concentration of auto centric strip malls, restaurants and a movie theatre. People gather there, for sure, but the parking lot(s) are just as large in area as all the businesses. March road in Kanata is just a high tech corridor..I wouldn't even say that Ottawa has a pseudo downtown..Older urban neighbourhoods with a main street for sure..Having said that, I can see Kanata becoming like a future Mississauga or Scarborough given 50 years..You can almost see the seeds planted.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
The setbacks seems to be the biggest thing - these pseudo downtowns all have buildings way too far back. What's so hard about buildings flush against the sidewalk which in turn is flush against the road? Why is that so hard to build in today's times?
In a lot of cases, set backs are simply part of the zoning code. Which personally makes my blood boil.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
In a lot of cases, set backs are simply part of the zoning code. Which personally makes my blood boil.
In Hamilton's (and probably other cities) case its also to allow for future road widenings, which is absurd.
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  #34  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 8:03 PM
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Coquitlam has been trying to create a downtown in what was SFH and empty lots, swampy land, beside a big suburban mall. They moved the city hall to the area and a police office to help establish something. It's not yet a downtown but has the potential to become one.
It is still part suburban strip malls and SFH which are slowly being redeveloped into high rises with retail and office spaces.

Next door to Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam has a much more established downtown, very small town feel to it.

Also Port Moody has more of a downtown feel despite most of it just being a street you drive through.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
Coquitlam has been trying to create a downtown in what was SFH and empty lots, swampy land, beside a big suburban mall. They moved the city hall to the area and a police office to help establish something. It's not yet a downtown but has the potential to become one.
It is still part suburban strip malls and SFH which are slowly being redeveloped into high rises with retail and office spaces.
Metro Vancouver is shaped as much by politics as the natural environment these days. What gets turned into a "downtown" mostly has to do with municipal boundaries and many of them were arbitrary. Coquitlam/Port Moody/Port Coquitlam is a good example of that. Coquitlam is just a semi-random slice of suburban metro Vancouver but its municipal government wants to have its own commercial area with the tax base and vibrancy that brings. Port Moody was the first area to be built up around there.

Burnaby is another arbitrary municipality that filled the space around Vancouver and New Westminster. The north and south are not connected very well and Hastings is older spillover from Vancouver. Metrotown has the largest scale development but it's not "downtown" for people living along Hastings or by Lougheed.

I would also argue that NIMBYism in the City of Vancouver has driven growth in areas like Metrotown or Brentwood. Originally, people probably would have rather lived in a condo by say Commercial, but that development was not permitted so it went farther out.
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  #36  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Metro Vancouver is shaped as much by politics as the natural environment these days. What gets turned into a "downtown" mostly has to do with municipal boundaries and many of them were arbitrary. Coquitlam/Port Moody/Port Coquitlam is a good example of that. Coquitlam is just a semi-random slice of suburban metro Vancouver but its municipal government wants to have its own commercial area with the tax base and vibrancy that brings. Port Moody was the first area to be built up around there.

Burnaby is another arbitrary municipality that filled the space around Vancouver and New Westminster. The north and south are not connected very well and Hastings is older spillover from Vancouver. Metrotown has the largest scale development but it's not "downtown" for people living along Hastings or by Lougheed.

I would also argue that NIMBYism in the City of Vancouver has driven growth in areas like Metrotown or Brentwood. Originally, people probably would have rather lived in a condo by say Commercial, but that development was not permitted so it went farther out.

This describes Metro Vancouver well. Hastings in North Burnaby and Kingsway around Metrotown are walkable areas, but I see them more as extensions of Vancouver than being their own downtowns. Edmonds, also in Burnaby, is also a walkable area but it’s more of an extension of New Westminster. The old interurban rail line ran north on 6th Street out of New West into Burnaby, and the Edmonds area is basically an old streetcar suburb of New West.
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  #37  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 8:38 PM
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In London, Byron could be an example of a pseudo-downtown. The village dates back to the early 1800s and is basically as old as London itself, but prior to WWII it was more of a rural corner with a school and a couple of churches; much of the current development is from after WWII. Even the storefront strip on Commissioners wasn’t built until around 1956, but back then Byron wasn’t part of the City of London and I think they were trying to establish themselves as another major town in Middlesex County.

There has been some densification along Commissioners in the past 10 years, with several new apartment buildings going up, though I don’t think any go above 8 storeys.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 1:51 AM
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Metro Vancouver is awash with these McDowntowns aka Metrotown, Coquitlam Centre, Surrey Centre, and "The Amazing Brentwood".

These "downtowns" are nothing of the sort. They are simply mass developments along SkyTrain lines. They can add all the bells & whistles they like but when you get right down to it they are nothing more than condos surrounding a mall.

The fact that they are sterile and lack any form of warmth or urbanity is hardly surprising. One has to remember that such developments are not built by people but by and for developers who single focus is to get as much money out of as little land as they can muster. They cater to only certain incomes and have, in some ways, become a 21st century rendition of a gated community and while the gate may not be physically erected the profit-motive has certain created a social one.
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  #39  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 1:56 AM
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In regards to New Westminster, it is, in no way shape or form, a pseudo-downtown. It is very much a real city centre with history, character, varying social & economic demographics, intimacy, and urbanity.
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  #40  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 2:31 AM
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New West, along with much of prewar downtown Canada, is trying hard to become a pseudo downtown with all the disruption the investor class has brought to urban Canada: dull towers on ugly podiums replacing historic commercial buildings. eg King West and Yonge's historic buildings reduced to sanitized facades, chain retail while the actual history - history is made inside buildings not outside - wiped out.

Whenever I'm in York Cemetery I'm always reminded that Willowdale was once an urban/small town strip with beautiful homes and churches; now almost completely redeveloped into a generic boring high rise strip with fake mcmansions replacing classic red brick bungalows. NYCC may have ethnic scripts on the facades but that doesn't make it cool.

Last edited by urbandreamer; May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM.
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