Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by q12

Listen nobody gives a shit what you think when you show your NDP bias.

I'm tired of your pro NDP rants about how they are the saviors of our province.

The fact is what fenwick16 said makes a lot of sense. A Liberal Mike Savage and and Liberal Stephen Mcneil will probably be the best chance Halifax has at getting funding for a Stadium.

We have a sub-forum for politics, and political discussions should stay there. I agree that making a politically slanted post outside of that poisons the rest of the comment and hurts any discussion that follows (I've said as much before).

All of that said, baiting him (or anyone) with comments slamming a particular party or leader is no better. See above, or many other threads, where there are ad hominem attacks against Party A or Party Leader B that are out of context with the rest of the thread.

Practically speaking, removing the spin, all three party leaders are saying exactly the same thing. How is Dexter's 'I'd need to see a business case' an automatic 'No, you're never getting a stadium' while McNeil's 'I'd need to see what it looked like' (assuming he means the overall proposal) or Baillie's 'I'd need see an affordable proposal' a possible or guaranteed 'You're getting a stadium'? It's all exactly the same thing. People are just bringing their own biases into it.

But some bright sparks above decided to make it political for absolutely no reason.

Maybe save some of your anger for those comments?

Now maybe we can move back to rational, practical discussion of, you know, the facts, economics and design of any future stadium..

[q12]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Maybe save some of your anger for those comments?

Now maybe we can move back to rational, practical discussion of, you know, the facts, economics and design of any future stadium..

I'd like to keep this thread on the stadium topic too. I'm not pushing for any political party to win, I just think what fenwick16 said was worth noting that a mayor and premier of the same political stripes might help improve our chances of seeing a stadium built in Halifax soon.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by q12

I'd like to keep this thread on the stadium topic too. I'm not pushing for any political party to win, I just think what fenwick16 said was worth noting that a mayor and premier of the same political stripes might help improve our chances of seeing a stadium built in Halifax soon.

If having the same political stripes was that important, even though these are different levels of government with different demographics of voters and constituencies with which to be concerned, then perhaps the federal Conservatives should have lobbied for Saint John to be awarded the shipbuilding contract in order to scratch the backs of the New Brunswick Conservatives -- instead of allowing an NDP Nova Scotia to adorn it?

This discussion may be resumed in the Atlantic Provinces section, where there is an established thread. Thank you for the debate.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Practically speaking, removing the spin, all three party leaders are saying exactly the same thing. How is Dexter's 'I'd need to see a business case' an automatic 'No, you're never getting a stadium' while McNeil's 'I'd need to see what it looked like' (assuming he means the overall proposal) or Baillie's 'I'd need see an affordable proposal' a possible or guaranteed 'You're getting a stadium'? It's all exactly the same thing. People are just bringing their own biases into it.

Yeah I had the exact same reaction when I saw this in the paper that really they all just said the exact same thing about a stadium. No doubt anyone is who partisan will then interpret that in a way that looks best for their party, because that is the nature of partisanship.

Step one is undoubtably that SOMEONE has to take the lead here and be the one to say we want to do this and here is a business plan. In my mind that has to be either the Mayor or a local business leader who wants to do this (assuming one exists).

PS: as an aside, this election I am voting purely based on the candidates in my riding. To my eye, all three parties are just shades of each other. Take the use of government funds for corporate investment... they all rail against it when in opposition, and all happily do it when they are in power. All of them. I have been grilling every candidate who comes to my door, and whoever I think is the best candidate will get my vote regardless of what party they represent.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by q12

I just think what fenwick16 said was worth noting that a mayor and premier of the same political stripes might help improve our chances of seeing a stadium built in Halifax soon.

A recent article in which CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon is quoted as saying that a future CFL expansion franchise will probably go to Halifax because of it's population base along with the potential for a suitable stadium. The bad news is that he thinks it could take as long as 10 years to happen because of the amount of work involved in getting a stadium built. I assume he is thinking of a stadium as part of a Shannon Park development.
http://kelownacapnews.com/sports/225431492.html

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

A recent article in which CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon is quoted as saying that a future CFL expansion franchise will probably go to Halifax because of it's population base along with the potential for a suitable stadium. The bad news is that he thinks it could take as long as 10 years to happen because of the amount of work involved in getting a stadium built. I assume he is thinking of a stadium as part of a Shannon Park development.
http://kelownacapnews.com/sports/225431492.html

Unfortunately, I think that 10 years might even be optimistic. That is about how long it took the Nova Centre to go from initial conceptual design until it will be complete in 2016.

Other cities in Canada are building major stadiums but they already have teams so they can somewhat justify the expense (although all of these stadiums will probably lose money in reality).

I went into Hamilton today and got some pictures of the new Tim Hortons Field. Here are a couple pictures to show why it is costing $146 million (which includes money budgeted to cover cost over-runs but the services and land already existed). It is an enormous structure with multiple concourse levels. I posted larger picture sizes in the Canada Stadium section - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...52997&page=181





It might be possible for Halifax to get a stadium sooner if it will go with a simpler, lower-cost design.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Unfortunately, I think that 10 years might even be optimistic. That is about how long it took the Nova Centre to go from initial conceptual design until it will be complete in 2016.

Other cities in Canada are building major stadiums but they already have teams so they can somewhat justify the expense (although all of these stadiums will probably lose money in reality).

If the HRM decided to fund a stadium project by itself then that would perhaps be a faster route. As you mention in your post, the money losing aspect of stadiums is, I believe, a common perception throughout Nova Scotia and it is creating a roadblock for potential support from the provincial government.

Ten years may be optimistic, which also depresses me. We still don't even known the location on which the stadium will be built. Shannon Park is frequently mentioned, but there are still possibilities the development could be out as far as Dartmouth Crossing -- or as central as the peninsula.

We need solid plans before we can begin any sort of countdown to success.
(...or in my opinion, disaster if the location is Dartmouth Crossing.)

[ILoveHalifax]

It seems to me that I have heard Mike Savage talk about a downtown location.

[c-way-dude]

At least there has already been work done towards building a stadium, if the powers that be choose to not start over. The stadium advisory committee had four potential sites for a stadium (including Shannon Park), and there still is the stadium plan for the Commonwealth Games bid, which IIRC, was expected to cost $122 million in 2007 dollars.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

It seems to me that I have heard Mike Savage talk about a downtown location.

Depending on the definition of "downtown", this could be a good idea. I think the city would get a lot more out of a stadium located near other hotels, other tourist sites, etc.

Shannon Park made more sense when there was an athletes' village type proposal and a bunch of other stuff to go along with that, and even then I am not sure it would have worked out so well. Most artificial "sports districts" tend to end up pretty sterile, and access to Shannon Park isn't great.

[ILoveHalifax]

I heard Savage say Cogswell.

[someone123]

Is there actually enough space at Cogswell for a stadium (we've probably been over that about 50 times in this thread)? Maybe if you really shoe-horned it in and put some streets underground..? Maybe if part of Purdy's were redeveloped? Or it could go next to the casino. That could be good if the car traffic were put into a tunnel, the Trademart building were redeveloped, and a nice link were developed between Cogswell/Brunswick and the waterfront.

It would will be hard to make such a plan work well though, and the more complicated it is the more it will cost.

[Drybrain]

I really think Cogswell would be terrible. The giant mono-use of a stadium, plus the parking requirements, would basically ensure a permanent disruption between downtown and the North End, and it would fritter away a huge blank canvas for development. Most cities with downtown stadiums, at least in Canada, have them on the edge of downtown, backing up onto some netherzone--GM Place butts up against False Creek, Rogers Centre up against the Gardiner, and the Saddledome against the Stampede grounds.

It just feels like a waste of a great location. A stadium should be reasonably central, but it doesn't have to be right in the heart of downtown. Just too huge.

[Keith P.]

The entire Uniacke Square/St Pats-Alexandra area is dying for renewal.

[fenwick16]

Unfortunately, the Cogswell site wouldn't be large enough for a stadium. I downloaded a 3D model (drawn by azz8) of Toronto's BMO Field at the Cogswell site below:



As another comparison, I showed the new Hamilton's Tim Hortons stadium site at the same map scale as a section of Halifax. A stadium would require at a minimum about 10 acres (but 12 acres would be better to allow for expansion).

[RyeJay]

Develop on the Halifax Commons: the portion of land from the corner of Cunard and Robie, to Cogswell Street.

This stadium would be a good compliment to the remaining baseball fields, the oval, the pool, the tennis courts, the skate park, the children's playground, the perimeter walking trails that are bordered with landscaping, and the ample amount of open green space. There's even a decent fountain (which could be renovated as part of this project, maybe?).

Not only will this be very walkable for college students and the surrounding residents, but Robie Street is a main traffic artery that may allow easier vehicular access for non-peninsular visitors.

This would help both Quinpool and Robie develop. And yes there would be loads of NIMBYs.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Unfortunately, the Cogswell site wouldn't be large enough for a stadium.

It could fit if the stands were, say, built on top of the (modified) casino structure and a tunnel were built underneath.

I agree that the Commons (or Gorsebrook) seem like more natural locations. It's a lot of under-used land there and it is intended for public uses. The roadways break it up a bit but they can always go underground. A big renewal project for the Commons that involved a stadium would be great -- it could come along with a lot of other amenities and improvements.

[fenwick16]

I think that the Halifax Commons or Wanderers Grounds would be the perfect location. A baseball stadium was located at the Wanderers Grounds in the past so there is a precedent for such a location. I think it was ILoveHalifax who gave the idea of returning the VG hospital grounds to green space as compensation.

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Develop on the Halifax Commons: the portion of land from the corner of Cunard and Robie, to Cogswell Street.
...
This would help both Quinpool and Robie develop. And yes there would be loads of NIMBYs.

So dig up and develop another huge portion of what's left of the commons? Count me among the NIMBYs. You may as well suggest putting it in the middle of Point Pleasant Park.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

It could fit if the stands were, say, built on top of the (modified) casino structure and a tunnel were built underneath.

Cogswell would work, but I would feel robbed on all the potential height we could have achieved, instead, with highrises.