Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The Glasgow accent is pretty thick, although the video was not that difficult to understand. You'd find equally challenging local accents within England itself. At least they wern't speaking the Doric or Gaelic.

Or cultural differences in speech, like Cockney rhyming slang.

I am fairly sure, we could find similar differences in accents and dialects in France itself (Basque country comes to mind). But I doubt our friend here would accept those differences as a basis for sovereignty.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Or cultural differences in speech, like Cockney rhyming slang.

Cockney is mostly a thing of the past now. The "thickest" accent I've heard in London when I lived there was actually the next day after Glasgow, when the 3rd mechanic sent by the insurance company towed my car the last mile to the place where it was to be repaired. This guy had a very working-class accent of Eastern London, but it was largely understandable (if only ugly), and nothing like the mechanic in Glasgow. Really not comparable.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am fairly sure, we could find similar differences in accents and dialects in France itself (Basque country comes to mind). But I doubt our friend here would accept those differences as a basis for sovereignty.

Radios and televisions have completely flattened accents in Metropolitan France. There is not a single corner of Metropolitan France where you can find accents as divergent from standard French as what can be heard in Scotland.

To find something similar to Scotland, you'd have to go to overseas France. In Martinique, Guadeloupe, Réunion, yes, you can find people as hard to understand as people in Scotland, if they don't speak creole, which is another language altogether.

[Truenorth00]

^ Yeah, yeah. You always have an excuse for why France is indivisible but other countries aren't. But last time I checked, the Scots weren't nearly as desperate to separate as the Basques, who consider France oppressive enough to kill and die for their cause.

Also, the flattening of accents is rather universal. We've had the same in Anglo-Canada since the 80s. I had a colleague who called it "Sesame Street effect" where every kid grew up watching the same shows with the same accent and moved towards that norm. It's not a coincidence that the videos you keep posting have older people in them.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ Yeah, yeah. You always have an excuse for why France is indivisible but other countries aren't.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But last time I checked, the Scots weren't nearly as desperate to separate as the Basques, who consider France oppressive enough to kill and die for their cause.

You're confusing the French Basque Country and the Spanish Basque Country. Time to open some books...

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, the flattening of accents is rather universal.

It's perhaps universal, but it's not evident in the UK. It's one of those rare European countries where the diversity of accents remains incredibly strong. Another example is Flanders. Spain also to some extent. But most other European countries are experiencing a flattening of accents, and France more than most, which I regret actually, but that's the way it is.

[Acajack]

There are African-American accents that I and even many Anglo-Canadians have difficulty understanding.

There are some Newfoundland accents that are difficult for other Anglo-Canadians to understand.

There are some Acadien accents that are difficult for Québécois to understand.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are African-American accents that I and even many Anglo-Canadians have difficulty understanding.

There are some Newfoundland accents that are difficult for other Anglo-Canadians to understand.

There are some Acadien accents that are difficult for Québécois to understand.

There are some Newfoundland accents that other Newfoundlanders do not understand. There still is a distinct difference between a Townie or Bayman.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You're confusing the French Basque Country and the Spanish Basque Country. Time to open some books...

Well yes. When you support and appease terrorists (as France did with Spain) they won't bite the hand that feeds them. When you stop....

I'm sure it's of some comfort to the families of dead French police officers that ETA killed more Spaniards than French police and military personnel.

But hey, we're diverging from talking about Quebec. Maybe you're only regret is that France didn't support more terrorists in Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Well yes. When you support and appease terrorists (as France did with Spain) they won't bite the hand that feeds them. When you stop....

You're worth better than that.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are African-American accents that I and even many Anglo-Canadians have difficulty understanding.

There are some Newfoundland accents that are difficult for other Anglo-Canadians to understand.

There are some Acadien accents that are difficult for Québécois to understand.

Canada lacks non-standard English accents. If you listen to old CBC we used to have more. French in Canada has many many more.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am having fun today.

https://twitter.com/L0cutux/status/1...465176/photo/1

This exchange was interesting because it reflects the different thinking about the role of government in Anglo-Saxon vs. Francophonie cultures.

The original comment was:

Bonjour Hi everyone! Do we still not have freedom of speech in this province?

Which was responded to by memes about ROCers not speaking/willing to speak French.

From the Anglo-Saxon POV this is irrelevant as a comeback, because the question is about freedom of speech - this viewpoint would say "there's nothing stopping an individual person in ON or MB or NS or whatever from saying "Bonjour" if they want to, so there's no issue, but Quebec is trying to restrict what people say in private.

The Francophonie counterargument would be to note the role of government in promoting/regulating culture and noting that a laissez-faire policy approach inherently benefits the majority, so that's not a fair comparison.

Hypocritically, though, a lot of English-speaking people are totally on board with this line of reasoning about laissez-faire approaches not being fair to minorities when it's about pretty much any other minority group that's not Quebecois, so I imagine this grates a lot on them.

[big T]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Reminds me, I've been wanting to ask:

In Montreal, when I get "Bonjour/Hi", I always respond "Hello/Bonjour". Is that considered appropriate or passive/aggressive?

It could be, though I guess it's more annoying than anything. Bonjour/hi is an invitation to choose, extended to you, the customer. By not picking one option, you're creating more work for the clerk (they have to pick now). If you were indeed making a political statement with that response, then you're creating an even more exhausting situation for them (they likely want to sell you stuff and go on about their day, not debate language dynamics with a stranger).

Assuming the spirit of your query is "is it ok to use English then" -- if they open with bonjour/hi, they're ok with it. If they wanted to stick to French only, they could go with only bonjour, with the law on their side.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I wouldn't totally agree with that. It's not because Scotland speaks the same language as England (sort of) that it is not as different from England as Québec is from ROC. I've been to Scotland several times, even stayed in a Scottish family in my middle high school years, and it's just a different world compared to England. People "feel" very different (about themselves). You hear also lots of scathing comments about England and the English when you're in Scotland (which greatly surprised me when I first was there). The "they" (Englishmen) vs "us" is very, very strong in Scotland.

You could say basically the exact same thing about Northern England with Londoners/Southerners being the "them".

The UK is a funny place. It's intensely regionalized, despite being politically extremely centralized for centuries (in the case of England specifically, for over a millennium..)

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Parti Québécois has made significant efforts over decades to try and attract people of immigrant origin to the cause. Starting with Gérald Godin in the 1970s, and followed by many others since then.

I wouldn't say it's been a total failure but the results have still been minimal and only minority fractions of immigrant origin communities have come on board.

The PQ (and the Bloc) have nonetheless had notable minority figures in their parties over the years, with several notable PQ Ministers when they have formed the government.

It's not even close to where they'd like it to be, but it's false to say that the PQ is a party with no minority presence. They've even had some anglo presence over the years, but that's even more minimal.

I've noticed that Scotland's separatist movement seems to have been better at attracting immigrants. Not sure what's going on there. Maybe it's because there is less of a language and cultural barrier? (All immigrants in Scotland integrate in the same culture, whereas in Quebec there is a considerable percentage of immigrants who integrate into Anglo-American culture, even if they do learn some French to varying degrees.)

Another thing working against the PQ of course is that Canada is still, by all accounts, a very good country. The UK isn't really that bad either but Canada is still doing better than them.

I'd say the current PQ approach is that they're very open to anyone of any origin who wants to embrace the cause, but they're not going to do anything special to say "your culture's traditional dancing will be taught to everyone in an independent Québec - are you on board now?"

I don't think the PQ was ever overly ill-intentioned towards immigrants, though the line between "defending our culture" and "rejecting others" is inherently fine. That's always going to be a challenge, and every move they make will be eyed with suspicion. They do play up the fear factor a bit much from time to time, and rightfully get called out, but mostly they're totally fine. You could say they tend to catch more flak than others (e.g. the CAQ), but that comes with the territory. Anyone comparing them with European-style nationalists is either misinformed or disingenuous.

That said, the dynamics of immigration play against separation no matter what. These are, after all, people who chose to immigrate to Canada, so expecting them to change their minds would require extraordinary circumstances -- I don't think Canada is that much of a disappointment to the vast majority of immigrants, including those who successfully integrate into Quebec francophone society. And that, too, likely plays against PQ's appeal to immigrants of all backgrounds.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by big T

It could be, though I guess it's more annoying than anything. Bonjour/hi is an invitation to choose, extended to you, the customer. By not picking one option, you're creating more work for the clerk (they have to pick now). If you were indeed making a political statement with that response, then you're creating an even more exhausting situation for them (they likely want to sell you stuff and go on about their day, not debate language dynamics with a stranger).

Assuming the spirit of your query is "is it ok to use English then" -- if they open with bonjour/hi, they're ok with it. If they wanted to stick to French only, they could go with only bonjour, with the law on their side.

My response is coming from a place of "English preferred, but French OK". This would always be in a service/retail setting, so my view tends to be "my money. my choice", but I'm not looking to create problems for someone without English (although that has happened to me precisely once in the past 50+ years).

But I come at this as an outsider. I really don't know what Anglo Montrealers do.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've literally never heard anyone say maréchaussée.

I thought you'd find that amusing. La maréchaussée provinciale du Maine. This is in a ruling of the Royal Council from the year 1682. Various rulings of the Royal Council that year dealt with Canada (one redirecting a trial to the gouverneur de la Nouvelle France, several ones dealing with the Ferme d'Occident, one about the tax on the peaux de castor levied at the port of La Rochelle, etc).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You're worth better than that.

Sure. But in this thread we gotta operate at your level.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by big T

It could be, though I guess it's more annoying than anything. Bonjour/hi is an invitation to choose, extended to you, the customer. By not picking one option, you're creating more work for the clerk (they have to pick now). If you were indeed making a political statement with that response, then you're creating an even more exhausting situation for them (they likely want to sell you stuff and go on about their day, not debate language dynamics with a stranger).

Assuming the spirit of your query is "is it ok to use English then" -- if they open with bonjour/hi, they're ok with it. If they wanted to stick to French only, they could go with only bonjour, with the law on their side.

That's been my impression as an anglo (with some high school level of French - mostly forgotten from lack of opportunity for use) visitor to Quebec.

As a rookie visitor, I made the mistake of answering "Bonjour", thinking I was being polite and respectful to the fact that I was in a mostly Francophone province. The clerk/waiter/person on the street/etc. would take from that that I was francophone and then proceed in very quick (to me) and fluid French that I might only pick out one quarter to one half of what they said... in other words I didn't have a hope in hell of understanding what they were saying to me.

So... I learned to answer "Hello", and the situation worked out much better for both parties.

In the times I met a francophone person, I would attempt to stumble through a conversation in French, which usually was mostly amusing to both parties, but almost always resulted in some understanding (often with help from hand gestures, etc.). Now, with smartphones and translation apps, I suspect this would go much more smoothly. I have yet to test this theory, though, as I haven't traveled to Quebec since before the pandemic...

You know... on a side note, I think this is why all the prickly rhetoric in this thread kind of rubs be the wrong way. Any time I've met a francophone in person, the exchange has always been a positive one, even if the differences in languages created some challenges. I've always been left with such a positive impression of Quebecois, that this thread has eroded to a small degree (I also realize that a lot of this is about the airing of grievances over the internet, and the ability to shoot from the hip anonymously, with no recourse other than hurt feelings). However, despite the efforts of people like NB to create divides, I hold fast to my impression that we are all good people, and part of a Canada that is much stronger than some participants of this thread want to let us believe.