Destination V [555, ch Vanier, Aylmer] | U/C

[Horus]

At a very bare minimum, the new configuration of the exit of the property to Chemin Vanier has slightly improved traffic flow around that area.

Also happy to see Aylmer getting its long-overdue 4th Dollarama location

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Listen, you can't just go around calling anyone who opposes this absolute dog sh*t of a development a NIMBY. I do not live anywhere close to this suburban wasteland. It is impossible for me to be a nimby. I have no dog in this fight. It is just a really, really, terrible design. It's like you have no comprehension of good urban planning or urban design at all. A forest across the street is not useable green space, and Gatineau Park is almost 10km away. Where are the children in this development supposed to play? The dumpster behind the dollar store? You have to leave the site to find any sort of enjoyment at all.



The mentality of "Ottawa has allowed some horrible developments, why can't Gatineau?" is not justifiable. This is honestly one of the worst development proposals I've ever seen. I can understand why it was adamantly opposed.

Ok, where do I begin here. You obviously have NO understanding of the neighbourhood whatsoever, so I will try to explain it to you.

'It is just a really, really, terrible design. It's like you have no comprehension of good urban planning or urban design at all.' - Why is an extension of a small box mall in this location including medium density residential that is adjacent to low density residential, a block from a high school, along a future mass transit line, and adjacent to a main arterial road 'really, really, terrible design'. This is the perfect spot for more retail and medium density residential from any objective point of view. What would be more suitable for this lot?!
Screenshot 2021-01-13 175551 by harley613, on Flickr

'A forest across the street is not useable green space' - The Boucher Forest has an extensive trail network across 700+ acres of forest. It is an extremely large and extremely popular green space. It also contains a large open green area, splash pad and off leash dog space at Jardin Lavigne Park. Here is a link for you to learn more. http://www.fondationforetboucher.ca/boucherforest

'Gatineau Park is almost 10km away' - Gatineau Park is exactly 5km away from this new mall whether you take Alumettieres or Chemin Vanier. Either way, it's a very easy bike ride away. There are massive swaths of urban parkland and greenspace within 3 kilometres of this site, including the Ottawa River pathway. Du Plateau has it's own extensive network of urban walking, bike and nature pathways.

Where are the children in this development supposed to play? The dumpster behind the dollar store? You have to leave the site to find any sort of enjoyment at all. They could take their pick of any of the dozens of parks, splash pads, fields and forests within a twenty minute walk. Parc du Marigot, Parc D'arcy McGee-Symmes, Parc de la Petite-Nation, The Boucher Forest are within a five minute walk. A new library, super park, outdoor rink, skate park and splashpad are less than 20 minutes walk or 7 minutes bike ride. I wish I had grown up in a location with this much 'enjoyment' at hand. All this is fairly moot, however, as the medium density apartments they will build here will likely skew towards older occupants who will appreciate the easy transit and road access, shopping, and potentially very easy access to the new super-hospital that will likely be built in or near the neighbourhood.

This is honestly one of the worst development proposals I've ever seen - You really need to get out more and see the world!

[GeoNerd]

Honestly Harley819, I don't even know where to start, but I'll try. I actually DO know the area quite well thank you. It's a poorly planned piecework of suburban developments in a car dependent area of town, mostly for people that can't afford to live in Ottawa.

Again, a forest is NOT useable park space. Are you going to send your 6 year old daughter walking through a big-box parking lot, across a collector road, into a forrest to play? The closest parking lot (because you would need to drive) in Gatineau Park 7.2km away. That's the closest. All this b.s. about splash pads within a 20 minute walk, park space within 3km, pipe dream mass transit systems, or hypothetical hospitals, is trash. It means nothing. A child or senior is not going to walk 3km to get to a park.

The fact that you are defending building stand alone strip malls with surface parking and some giant slab apartments circa 1975 tells me all i need to know. "This is the perfect spot for more retail" actually made me LOL. This is honestly a piece of sh*t development that lacks any design value whatsoever. I understand that you live here and think driving to Boston Pizza in a strip mall subdivision is a good time. But anyone with any sense of city-building or urban design sees that this is exactly what is wrong with land development. It's lazy, it's ugly, it's cheap, and it should never have been approved. "There's worse out there" is not a good excuse.

[J.OT13]

I'd say both of you are exaggerating. GeoNerd, calling the expansion of a box store development and parking lot "honestly one of the worst development proposals I've ever seen" when really, it's just more of the same, maybe even a slight improvement over your standard big box store development thanks to retail buildings abutting the street (though facing inward) and a few more pedestrian paths through the site.

On the complete other end of the spectrum, Harley613's passionate defence of a pretty typical... box store development and associated parking.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I'd say both of you are exaggerating. GeoNerd, calling the expansion of a box store development and parking lot "honestly one of the worst development proposals I've ever seen" when really, it's just more of the same, maybe even a slight improvement over your standard big box store development thanks to retail buildings abutting the street (though facing inward) and a few more pedestrian paths through the site.

On the complete other end of the spectrum, Harley613's passionate defence of a pretty typical... box store development and associated parking.

I'm not defending this development as a masterclass in urban development, I am defending it as a perfectly sensible development for it's location.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I'm not defending this development as a masterclass in urban development, I am defending it as a perfectly sensible development for it's location.

That's fair.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Honestly Harley819, I don't even know where to start, but I'll try. I actually DO know the area quite well thank you. It's a poorly planned piecework of suburban developments in a car dependent area of town, mostly for people that can't afford to live in Ottawa.

Again, a forest is NOT useable park space. Are you going to send your 6 year old daughter walking through a big-box parking lot, across a collector road, into a forrest to play? The closest parking lot (because you would need to drive) in Gatineau Park 7.2km away. That's the closest. All this b.s. about splash pads within a 20 minute walk, park space within 3km, pipe dream mass transit systems, or hypothetical hospitals, is trash. It means nothing. A child or senior is not going to walk 3km to get to a park.

The fact that you are defending building stand alone strip malls with surface parking and some giant slab apartments circa 1975 tells me all i need to know. "This is the perfect spot for more retail" actually made me LOL. This is honestly a piece of sh*t development that lacks any design value whatsoever. I understand that you live here and think driving to Boston Pizza in a strip mall subdivision is a good time. But anyone with any sense of city-building or urban design sees that this is exactly what is wrong with land development. It's lazy, it's ugly, it's cheap, and it should never have been approved. "There's worse out there" is not a good excuse.

'It's a poorly planned piecework of suburban developments in a car dependent area of town, mostly for people that can't afford to live in Ottawa. ' - Du Plateau is a very well executed master-planned community with a full range of housing including affordable rental terrace homes, luxury apartments, townhomes, single family homes, larger luxury single family homes... you name it. 'Mostly for people that can't afford to live in Ottawa' is a ridiculous and inflammatory statement. This is a great neighbourhood with great amenities and the location within a few minutes drive of Downtown is hard to beat. It is 'car-dependent' at the moment but mass transit IS coming in the next few years.

'Again, a forest is NOT useable park space. Are you going to send your 6 year old daughter walking through a big-box parking lot, across a collector road, into a forrest to play? The closest parking lot (because you would need to drive) in Gatineau Park 7.2km away. That's the closest. All this b.s. about splash pads within a 20 minute walk, park space within 3km, pipe dream mass transit systems, or hypothetical hospitals, is trash. It means nothing. A child or senior is not going to walk 3km to get to a park. ' - A forest with hiking trails is the ULTIMATE useable park space. My daughter is five, not six, and we walk or bike down the street to the Boucher Forest frequently. Our favourite activity is a nature walk to the off leash dog park and splash pad on the other side. The closest parking lot in Gatineau Park from the corner of Allumettieres and Vanier is 5kms away, but this is the furthest point in the neighbourhood from the park. The park is easily accessible from the neighbourhood by foot, bike and car. There is no 'b.s. about splash pads' and 'park space within 3km', there ARE splash pads and parks within 3km. I don't even know what you are trying to say here. My family walks and bikes all over the neighbourhood to visit them, so do thousands of other families, just like people do in any other suburban neighbourhood. As for seniors, my Dad lives in Agora in the center of the Plateau, he is a senior, and he walks the entire neighbourhood frequently, along with thousands of other seniors. 'pipe dream mass transit system' Well, it's been announced, so it's hardly a pipe dream. It IS coming.''hypothetical hospitals' Also officially announced, still waiting on location, but likely coming to this area, not hypothetical.

'The fact that you are defending building stand alone strip malls with surface parking and some giant slab apartments circa 1975 tells me all i need to know. "This is the perfect spot for more retail"' - Please look at the map and tell me what you think would be the best use of this land, keeping in mind it's development is inevitable as it is within the neighbourhood's planned development boundaries' 'I understand that you live here and think driving to Boston Pizza in a strip mall subdivision is a good time. - far from it. While I enjoy having convenient shopping and amenities, we chose to move to this neighbourhood from Wakefield because it has easy access to the nature we are leaving behind while keeping me close to chemotherapy.

[jt-mtl]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Listen, you can't just go around calling anyone who opposes this absolute dog sh*t of a development a NIMBY. I do not live anywhere close to this suburban wasteland. It is impossible for me to be a nimby. I have no dog in this fight. It is just a really, really, terrible design. It's like you have no comprehension of good urban planning or urban design at all. A forest across the street is not useable green space, and Gatineau Park is almost 10km away. Where are the children in this development supposed to play? The dumpster behind the dollar store? You have to leave the site to find any sort of enjoyment at all.



The mentality of "Ottawa has allowed some horrible developments, why can't Gatineau?" is not justifiable. This is honestly one of the worst development proposals I've ever seen. I can understand why it was adamantly opposed.

The next street over has a children's park with water activities. There is a football/soccer field right next to that park as well. Down the street a couple of kilometres away is the park sponsored by the Senators. There is enough green space around.

Yes, big box stores have a certain look and feel that may be questionable, but in this case, it is serving a community that needs it.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Harley613

'A very well executed master-planned community... luxury apartments... larger luxury single family homes... great neighbourhood... great amenities...

Again, I cannot debate with someone that doesn't comprehend urban design and thinks that a car-dependent strip mall with some slab apartments and vinyl siding clad homes is a great place to live. Also, we were discussing this specific project and you went off on some tangent about the greater northwest area of Gatineau.You have clearly swallowed the marketing blue pill and there is no getting through to you. Lastly, you are not sending your 5-year-old daughter through a strip mall parking lot, across a collector road, and into a forest by herself. Zero chance. It is NOT a proper park space for this development.

[GeoNerd]

Here you can see all the asphalt/hard surface areas. The only not asphalt areas are spaces used for required storm water retention ponds and awkward spaces that buildings couldn't get crammed into. Truly a horrific design even by 1980's standards.

Originally Posted by Harley613

Please look at the map and tell me what you think would be the best use of this land

Here is what a non-sack of sh*t mixed-use neighbourhood can look like. You can still have your Dollarama's and Boston Pizza's, but properly designed into a mixed-use neighbourhood. "Destination-V was clearly not designed by a competent design firm. I can only presume it was drafted up by an armchair urbanist with no formal design training.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Here is what a non-sack of sh*t mixed-use neighbourhood can look like. You can still have your Dollarama's and Boston Pizza's, but properly designed into a mixed-use neighbourhood. "Destination-V was clearly not designed by a competent design firm. I can only presume it was drafted up by an armchair urbanist with no formal design training.

The projection here is hilarious. You show a picture of a proposal for a 135 acre corporate campus and mixed use development in Texas as an example of what should go in a 400 meter x 150 meter lot in a Gatineau suburb...SMH.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Harley613

The projection here is hilarious. You show a picture of a proposal for a 135 acre corporate campus and mixed use development in Texas as an example of what should go in a 400 meter x 150 meter lot in a Gatineau suburb...SMH.

Ok then.



I'm not as up in arms about this development as GeoNerd seems to be. Expanding a medium box store parking lot. Whatever. Not expecting parkland for play structures and dog walkers; that's the City's responsibility, and they've been doing a decent job in Le Plateau. But jt-mtl presenting this as a Triumph in urban design is a bit much.

I'm glad the City of Gatineau is cracking down on box store developments and hope this is the last one we see built (in Gatineau, because Ottawa and most other jurisdictions continue to embrace car-centric designs).

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Harley613

The projection here is hilarious. You show a picture of a proposal for a 135 acre corporate campus and mixed use development in Texas as an example of what should go in a 400 meter x 150 meter lot in a Gatineau suburb...SMH.

Yes, it's a great example of what people with even the slightest comprehension of land development can design. There is no reason "Destination V" couldn't incorporate a similar mixed-use design style despite being a less than a 1/4 the size. Not sure what you find hilarious. Just because it's in a "Gatineau suburb" doesn't mean it needs to be a cheap, poorly designed, dump.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Yes, it's a great example of what people with even the slightest comprehension of land development can design. There is no reason "Destination V" couldn't incorporate a similar mixed-use design style despite being a less than a 1/4 the size. Not sure what you find hilarious. Just because it's in a "Gatineau suburb" doesn't mean it needs to be a cheap, poorly designed, dump.

The Destination V site is about 7 hectares by my estimation, compared to the 56 hectare development you are holding up as an example. 8 times smaller. I'm honestly curious why you think this particular parcel of land is so deserving of excellence in urban design. I want to know why you think a developer would invest in creating something better here, sandwiched between an existing established box mall and a well developed neighbourhood, especially while Agora is being built just down one street and a gentrifying Downtown Aylmer is just down the other street. Do you have equal concerns about the very similar box store/apartment re-developments going on at Westgate, Lincoln Fields, Elmvale, et al? Where do you think the funding would come from to develop very average mixed-use zoned suburban lots into something spectacular?

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ok then.

One of these locations is not like the other. Agora is the core of a master planned community and is surrounded by existing and planned central amenities like the Library, a massive park, and a Community Garden.

Edit: and it's still 1/8th the scale of the massive corporate campus / mixed use development in Texas that Geonerd is touting.

[IMG]Screenshot 2021-01-19 112847 by harley613, on Flickr[/IMG]

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I'm honestly curious why you think this particular parcel of land is so deserving of excellence in urban design. Where do you think the funding would come from to develop very average mixed-use zoned suburban lots into something spectacular?

I actually don't even understand your argument or train of thought. We should be striving for excellence in every single development. Why do you think we should be allowed to put up cheap strip malls everywhere? Do you think good urban design = more expensive? A better designed development would almost definitely return way more on their investment, allow for greater density, be less car-dependent, have proper on-site amenities, provide a higher quality of life, and generate greater tax returns for the municipality.

Also, you seem to be hung up on the size of the development in the rendering I used. To avoid the image from continuing to be used as a red herring, i can post one of 2000 other great examples of a more similar size as Destination V if you'd prefer?

[Harley613]

Ok, I accept that you are an idealist. Unfortunately your ideals are not grounded in economic and demand based reality. I would also LOVE excellence in every development. I would like to see the strip and box mall blight abolished from the landscape. I would like to mow down every brutalist apartment block in Canada and replace them with slender LEED certified towers with multi-use podiums, excellent street interaction, and 50% affordable housing. We should also take out every second cookie cutter plywood suburban house and replace them with uniquely designed stone and brick houses, it would be nice to have the variety. The new Science and Technology museum and archives can't fit the whole collection...let's build a NEW new one! Lebreton Flats should be like the National Mall in Washington, at least 11 museums would be great.

[harls]

It looks like all the cheap-o auto dealers on the west side of Vanier were tantalized by buyout offers. They are gone.

There is a house at the end of rue Seto (is that one of the developer's names?) that has newly sprouted street lights planted in their front yard.

[harls]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Yes, it's a great example of what people with even the slightest comprehension of land development can design. There is no reason "Destination V" couldn't incorporate a similar mixed-use design style despite being a less than a 1/4 the size. Not sure what you find hilarious. Just because it's in a "Gatineau suburb" doesn't mean it needs to be a cheap, poorly designed, dump.

This crap was probably approved before the current mayor had any control over it.

Not saying he could have done something about it.. he probably could have.

[GeoNerd]

Again, good design does not necessarily equal more expensive. For example, they could break up one of the massive block buildings and spread out the residential above the retail blocks, create a better pedestrian experience, and I don't think adding a small on-site usable green space or parkette is going to bankrupt the project.

Anyways, I'm going to leave it here as your arguments have become a bit incoherent. You have argued that the neighbourhood is a well executed, master planned community, with "luxury" apartments and houses, but also argued that the neighbourhood is not deserving of excellence in urban design and the ideal location for a cheap low-end development.

Getting back to the initial post. In no way should the developer or community be proud of this project. There is a reason the city and "NIMBY's" fought this to the bitter end.