City-Suburb Relationships – Where The Midwest Is Worst

[Steely Dan]

A good thought-provoking article from Pete Saunders of "the corner side yard". I had never considered the "urban form" angle as part of this equation before.

City-Suburb Relationships – Where The Midwest Is Worst
Social and economic divides can be masked in other regions, because of their development patterns. But in the Midwest, the divides are as clear as can be.

Pete Saunders
Aug 28, 2024


Does anyone really think about the relationship a city has to its surrounding metro area? It means a lot more than you might think.

I saw something on X/Twitter last week that brought this to mind. A fellow Midwesterner kicked off a thread with an interesting question: what major American city has the worst relationship with its suburbs? Early on, I noticed a theme in the responses before I weighed in. Milwaukee, St. Louis, Detroit, Cleveland led the lists. There were occasional replies like Baltimore, Newark, Atlanta, even Jackson, MS. Of course, New York, Los Angeles and Chicago were mentioned, but there will always be people who want to call out the largest cities. But for every one of those, another Midwestern city would be mentioned.

My reply: “I've always said Midwest metros have the widest city/suburb divide of any region in the nation. Pick any of them.”

Full article: https://petesaunders.substack.com/p/...hips-where-the

[Crawford]

Detroit is an obvious answer, but it seems to have improved bigly in recent years. Suburbanites are much more positive about Detroit now (but they usually just mean downtown rather than city proper - city proper excluding downtown doesn't exist to most).

[iheartthed]

I think St. Louis, Milwaukee, and Detroit still have the most toxic city-suburb dynamic. Baltimore probably has the most toxic city-suburb relations on the East Coast, and Philadelphia is probably second most toxic. From afar, it seems like Atlanta has the most toxic city-suburb relationship in the Sun Belt, possibly followed by Miami.

New York (and Los Angeles?) does not have toxic a relationship with its suburbs, unless the toxicity is that New York gets all of the attention at the expense of the suburbs. New York often operates as if its suburbs don't even exist. The only two cities that matter are to New York City are New York City and Albany.

Detroit's relationship isn't as overtly hostile as it was from the late 1960s through about 2010, but the power balance still skews way too much towards suburban interests. All big development projects in the city of Detroit are planned almost exclusively for people that live in the suburbs rather than people that live in the city of Detroit.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think St. Louis, Milwaukee, and Detroit still have the most toxic city-suburb dynamic. Baltimore probably has the most toxic city-suburb relations on the East Coast, and Philadelphia is probably second most toxic. From afar, it seems like Atlanta has the most toxic city-suburb relationship in the Sun Belt, possibly followed by Miami.

While you are correct about Philadelphia, it has improved immensely in my lifetime. The animosity of suburban boomers, which drove that city-suburb split, has been largely minimized by Gen Xers and Millenials who have much more positive impressions of Philadelphia. Philadelphia still has a massive cohort of millenials, and of those who don't live in city proper, many still think fondly of the city either because they lived here in their formative years or because they still come into Philly to socialize and dine out, etc.

I think there is a massive cohort of (white) Boomers in this region who have never lived in Philadelphia proper as adults. They were children when their parents yanked them from the city in the many waves of White Flight and spent their formative years socializing largely in the suburbs. It must have been awful, tbh. Anyways...they're the only cohort who doesn't have first hand experience so of course they talk about cities with the Faux News lens.

The generations after them rekindled that relationship and for the most part I think its healed.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think St. Louis, Milwaukee, and Detroit still have the most toxic city-suburb dynamic. Baltimore probably has the most toxic city-suburb relations on the East Coast, and Philadelphia is probably second most toxic. From afar, it seems like Atlanta has the most toxic city-suburb relationship in the Sun Belt, possibly followed by Miami.

New York (and Los Angeles?) does not have toxic a relationship with its suburbs, unless the toxicity is that New York gets all of the attention at the expense of the suburbs. New York often operates as if its suburbs don't even exist. The only two cities that matter are to New York City are New York City and Albany.

Detroit's relationship isn't as overtly hostile as it was from the late 1960s through about 2010, but the power balance still skews way too much towards suburban interests. All big development projects in the city of Detroit are planned almost exclusively for people that live in the suburbs rather than people that live in the city of Detroit.

For Miami (and most of all of South Florida) it's the opposite. People who live on the east side do not like going west to the suburbs, where as the suburbanites have no choice to participate in the main cities and more often then not like going to them. You often hear "I'm not going west of 95" (I-95).

[Docere]

Per Capita Income (city)

Baltimore $36,760
Buffalo $31,308
Chicago $45,449
Cleveland $26,784
Detroit $22,097
Milwaukee $29,250
Philadelphia $36,077
Pittsburgh $41,745
St. Louis $38,945

Per Capita Income (MSA)

Baltimore $48,700
Buffalo $40,288
Chicago $45,877
Cincinnati $41,698
Cleveland $40,750
Detroit $40,496
Milwaukee $42,356
Philadelphia $47,170
Pittsburgh $43,020
St. Louis $42,950

Per Capita Income of City as Percentage of Per Capita Income of MSA

Baltimore 75
Buffalo 78
Chicago 99
Cincinnati 90
Cleveland 66
Detroit 55
Milwaukee 69
Philadelphia 76
Pittsburgh 97
St. Louis 91

[Steely Dan]

^ interesting data. Can you add Chicago and Pittsburgh just to complete the rust belt picture?

Never woulda guessed that St. Louis city proper was so closely in line with its MSA on that score.



As for the absolute greatest city/suburbs divide, I agree with Pete Saunders that Detroit, Milwaukee, and. St. Louis probably top the list, rank them as you will.

In terms of specifical metrics, it seems to me like:

The greatest economic divide is Detroit
The greatest racial divide is Milwaukee
The greatest political divide is St. Louis

[edale]

Cincinnati used to have an absolutely toxic relationship with its suburbs, but I think it has really improved over the last 10-20 years. One of the biggest factors has been the revitalization of the city center, and overall better impression that suburbanites have of the core. Even hardened suburbanites recognize that Over the Rhine is cool and special, and will visit for entertainment of various kinds. Another reason for improvement has been the growth of the city again. For decades, the city was declining while the suburbs were growing. Since 2010, that narrative has shifted as the city has been growing and suburban growth has slowed in many areas. Finally, the racial dynamics of the Cincinnati region have shifted a lot over the last couple decades, too. Within Hamilton County, there are now more Black people living outside of the city limits than within them. The city is getting whiter, and the suburbs are getting more diverse. All of these factors kind of undermine the narratives that created such a toxic relationship between the city and the suburbs.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

For Miami (and most of all of South Florida) it's the opposite. People who live on the east side do not like going west to the suburbs, where as the suburbanites have no choice to participate in the main cities and more often then not like going to them. You often hear "I'm not going west of 95" (I-95).

There is definitely a thing where Fort Lauderdale/West Palm area residents hate traveling into anywhere in Miami-Dade.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ interesting data. Can you add Chicago and Pittsburgh just to complete the rust belt picture?

Never woulda guessed that St. Louis city proper was so closely in line with its MSA on that score.



As for the absolute greatest city/suburbs divide, I agree with Pete Saunders that Detroit, Milwaukee, and. St. Louis probably top the list, rank them as you will.

In terms of specifical metrics, it seems to me like:

The greatest economic divide is Detroit
The greatest racial divide is Milwaukee
The greatest political divide is St. Louis

I would've thought Milwaukee was less racially polarized than Detroit? I don't know the on-the-ground dynamics there, but the city doesn't appear to have a clear demographic majority of a single racial group in the city. On the other hand Detroit's city/suburb rift has always been predicated on racial politics. Detroit's current mayor is white and he's often derisively referred to as "Mayor Livonia" or "Mayor Suburb". The nickname draws attention to the fact that he lived in the suburbs up until running for mayor, and more subtly to the fact that he's a white mayor running a predominantly Black city.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I would've thought Milwaukee was less racially polarized than Detroit? I don't know the on-the-ground dynamics there, but the city doesn't appear to have a clear demographic majority of a single racial group in the city.

Last time I ran the numbers from census 2020, I believe metro Milwaukee was the only 1M+ MSA in the nation where over 90% of the entire metro's black population still lives within the city proper.

Everywhere else in the US, the burbs have gotten A LOT more diverse (at least in aggregate, if not always on an individual basis), but Milwaukee burbs are still predominantly lilly white like it's 1985 or something.

That situation is obviously slowly changing with each passing year, but Milwaukee is absolutely behind the curve on it.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Last time I ran the numbers from census 2020, I believe metro Milwaukee was the only 1M+ MSA in the nation where over 90% of the entire metro's black population still lives within the city proper.

Everywhere else in the US, the burbs have gotten A LOT more diverse (at least in aggregate, if not always on an individual basis), but Milwaukee burbs are still predominately lilly white like it's 1985 or something.

Oh wow. Yeah, Detroit's Black population isn't hyper-concentrated in the city anymore. I think roughly half of Black Metro Detroiters live in the city versus the suburbs now, which is down from around 90% in the 1990s.

[Docere]

Added Chicago, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by dave8721

There is definitely a thing where Fort Lauderdale/West Palm area residents hate traveling into anywhere in Miami-Dade.

Yes it's true, but, mostly we don't hate Miami we hate the chaotic, frustrating, and death-defying drive.

[Docere]

And some other cities for comparison:

Per Capita Income (city)

Atlanta $61,617
Boston $58,125
New York $48,448 (Manhattan $89,008)
San Francisco $89,736
Seattle $82,716
Washington DC $71,699

Per Capita Income (MSA)

Atlanta $43,561
Boston $59,165
New York $52,308
San Francisco $71,052
Seattle $60,346
Washington DC $59,366

City as % of MSA

Atlanta 141
Boston 98
New York 93 (Manhattan 170)
San Francisco 126
Seattle 137
Washington DC 121

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

mostly we don't hate Miami we hate the chaotic, frustrating, and death-defying drive.

But that's true for every major metro area.

Hell, I freaking HATE driving in Chicago traffic too.

And I live IN Chicago.

That's why I try to drive as little as possible.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

But that's true for every major metro area.

Hell, I freaking HATE driving in Chicago traffic too.

And I live IN Chicago.

That's why I try to drive as little as possible.

I know traffic is frustrating everywhere (I've driven in Chicago ), however, talk to me after you attempt to drive in Miami. The carelessness, incompetence, and danger level rivals America's worst cities for driving. The only saving grace is Tri-Rail (cheap, but infrequent & many stops) & Brightline (amazing, but, expensive).

[JManc]

Miami traffic is fucking terrible. Not only do you have the gridlock, every car sold in South Florida is mandated by law to have the horn activate as soon as you put it in drive.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Added Chicago, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh.

Oh, thanks for that.

Kinda crazy to see how Chicago's core gentrification has now completely closed the former city/burb income gap.

Pittsburgh and Cincy doing better than most peers on that score as well.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

Miami traffic is fucking terrible. Not only do you have the gridlock, every car sold in South Florida is mandated by law to have the horn activate as soon as you put it in drive.

South Florida has to have the worst drivers in the U.S. Huge concentration of elderly, people who learned to drive in the developing world, or never learned to drive in NYC, and a larger-than-average share of a--holes. And no one seems to understand parking etiquette. Combine with inadequate infrastructure and nonstop boom, you have driver hell.