The Most Diverse Cities Are Often The Most Segregated

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by goat314

I mostly agree. There is an old saying "In the South, Blacks can get close but not too big, in the North Blacks can get big but not too close".

yeah. or another way:

southern white: "stay in your place, boy."

northern white: "get away from me, your'e very scary."

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No, it's beause you aren't comparing apples to apples. Atlanta (proper) is a black city.

The city of Atlanta is tiny, and the white population in the city of Atlanta is tinier still. You're basically comparing suburban Buckhead and a few gentrified in-town blocks with entire cities. There are no working class or even middle class white areas in Atlanta proper.

Obviously a rich suburb and a few yuppie condos will have higher median incomes than millions of people in entire cities.


Not really. The collapse of the auto industry, yes, but not really the racial changes, which were actually at their height when the region was booming.

Atlanta has also lost a ton of blacks in the last two decades going from 67% to 54% from 1990 to 2010 and that's likely closer to 51% now. Whites make up an estimated % of around 41% so they're getting closer in population. I think it's fair to compare the incomes of both populations in the city limits now.

The collapse of the auto industry is what increased racial tension between whites and blacks in Detroit. Again, Atlanta has too many major industries to simply go bust. We aren't reliant on one industry.

I hate when people do this Atlanta is the next Detroit because it sounds like they're basing it off of high black population and that's it like conservatives do. It's racist.

[Ant131531]

And there are middle class white areas in Atlanta. What is neighborhoods like Virginia Highlands, Inman Park, Old Fourth Ward,Ponce Highlands, Glenwood Park, Midtown...those are middle class, not upper class. It is true however Atlanta lacks blue collar white neighborhoods due to it's history.

[Leo the Dog]

ATL is nothing like Detroit and no it's not going to collapse like Detroit did. Let's not get to a city v city discussion.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Atlanta has also lost a ton of blacks in the last two decades going from 67% to 54% from 1990 to 2010 and that's likely closer to 51% now. Whites make up an estimated % of around 41% so they're getting closer in population. I think it's fair to compare the incomes of both populations in the city limits now.

City limits comparisons, of any type, tend to be nonsensical, because city limits are completely arbitary. When we are talking "Atlanta" or "Detroit" I don't see any value in looking at municipal boundaries rather than looking at the metro area, which is an apples-to-apples, Census-verified geography.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by Crawford

City limits comparisons, of any type, tend to be nonsensical, because city limits are completely arbitary. When we are talking "Atlanta" or "Detroit" I don't see any value in looking at municipal boundaries rather than looking at the metro area, which is an apples-to-apples, Census-verified geography.

That's fine and all, but when people talk about Detroit's condition today, they always talk about the city limits and not the entire metro area, which is doing fine for the most part. The income disparity he quoted was about city limits hence why I am discussing city limits.

[PremierAtlanta]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

ATL is nothing like Detroit and no it's not going to collapse like Detroit did. Let's not get to a city v city discussion.

Agreed!

I generally shy away from such discussions because life is way too short and my time way too valuable. I'm baffled as to why one would cite income inequality as a sign that a city is about to go bust. Atlanta was number one, followed by San Francisco, Boston, Miami, Washington, DC and New York City. All are fabulous places. I must inquire: why is Atlanta the only one of the six who will go bust or to be compared to Detroit?

It does make you wonder....

[pdxtex]

people like the familiar. they like people like themselves. even if terrible real estate practices or shitty racist policies didnt exist, people would still probably self segregate their families to be with their own kind, whoever that is. it could be race, or even income. both are very common. the only place ive ever lived where everybody was all just thrown in together was in a college dorm. sometimes people move based on their own volition. imagine that.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

the only place ive ever lived where everybody was all just thrown in together was in a college dorm..

the neighborhood i live in now (edgewater, chicago) definitely seems more diverse than my college dorm, but i went to a small private liberal arts school in minnesota that definitely skewed affluent and white.

my current neighborhood has everything from families living in million dollar SFH's to people living in rundown 4+1's on section 8 vouchers and everything else in between. it's still mostly non-hispanic white (55%), but has a decent representation of the other major american groups too, black (15%), hispanic (15%), asian (12%). my dorm in college was definitely whiter than that.

but the far northside of chicago is an unusually mixed-up place relative to the rest of the city which definitely earns its hyper-segregated reputation.

[pdxtex]

annecdotally race seems very unimportant once you reach a certain income level. then its alot about common class. outside of super rich waspy enclaves or very, very poor neighborhoods, i bet most upper middle income folks probably dont care who their neighbor is. but with that probably comes some type of personal comfort, better education. shit like that. the big cities have parts that are "integrated", but how integrated are they really? new york has giant public housing compounds in manhattan but they are still filing cabinets of poor people or working class families. i dunno, i guess i dont think segregated is a big deal. its mostly how the person interprets it. forced segregation of the past is obviously shitty. homogenous areas or similar whatever seems logical and not a big deal. mixed areas where people move there on purpose seem like the best.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

homogenous areas or similar whatever seems logical and not a big deal.

i guess i just have a different perspective on the issue given my family's history. my dad was born and raised southside irish in '50s/'60s, with southside roots going back several generations. as recently as my birth in 1976, i still had dozens of relatives (grandparents, uncles/aunts, cousins, 2nd cousins, etc.) who all lived on the southside of chicago. flash forward to 2015 and i have not a single relative who still lives on the southside of chicago. one by one, they all fled to the burbs to escape "those people", much as my own father did when he decided to raise his family in the burbs.

it's not necessarily the whole "similar people tend to stick together" thing that i have such a huge issue with, it's more the way GIANT swaths of chicago's southside were abandoned by white people and their stabilizing (relative) wealth due to racial paranoia. it's all such a damn shame. so many neighborhoods lost to the downward spiral of poverty and decay all because the white people who lived there simply would not tolerate living next door to a black person.


source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2575921.html

[pdxtex]

we come from similar roots it appears. my dad was southside too, grew up on chappell ave but they fled to the hills too, moved out to evanston after my pops got into northwestern. generational context weighs heavy on ones outlook i guess. i grew up in SE michigan so i was even further insulated from chicago history, and 50 miles west of detroit and we all know the story of white flight there. but thats history and one i didnt grow up in directly. i think thats how alot of young people moving back to cities feel as well. they didnt grow up with tumultuous social conflict our parents did and view city life differently. the lucky ones can move where they want too, but at the end of the day birds of a feather still tend to do their thing, and flock together. white america and black america still has alot of mending to do, i agree. hopefully children of those who fled the city (and have returned to their parents' roots) and those who remained will learn to coexist together.

[memph]

Originally Posted by memph

It's something I've been looking into... in terms of black-white segregation, Toronto has relatively little by American standards, but there are American cities that are comparable.

Looking at other cities that have relatively small black populations, Boston and Pittsburgh are significantly more segregated, Sacramento, Seattle, the Bay Area and Austin are a bit more segregated, and Las Vegas and Inland Empire are about to same or maybe even a bit less segregated than Toronto.

I haven't done the numbers for LA, MSP, San Antonio or Denver yet, they also have pretty small black populations.

Here's the stats for Toronto's CMA.

Whites: 52.8%
Blacks: 7.2%
Others (mostly Asians): 40.0%

For the average white resident of the Toronto CMA, the demographics of their census tract are

Whites: 65.8%
Blacks: 5.4%
Others: 28.8%

The demographics for the average black resident are

Whites: 39.7%
Blacks: 14.9%
Others: 45.4%

So black-white segregation is a lot lower than in Boston and Pittsburgh, but still a bit higher than in LV and IE.

[jcchii]

also, segregation does not always equal racism in 2015.

modern chicago is dealing with the leftover structure from white flight and powerful economic forces from decades past, not to mention government planning that leveled ghettos and put up scores of highrise public housing, which has now been cleared. That can take 50 years to overcome and correct.

The Chicago of the 60's and 70's and even into the early 80's was run by white ethnic clans, to a certain degree. That has now faded. And people from that era have different brains on these matters.

Current Chicago has more people from everywhere, and the "whites" that are left have trended toward the wealthier, more educated liberal side. Probably statisically less likely to automatically spit out negativity toward a person they meet based on skin color. This was not my experience in the South, which I decline to get into here.

And there are "minority" neighborhoods all over the city that are being rapidly gentrified almost as we type. Including Humboldt Park and Bronzeville, to name two. So I for one expect that map to change soon. Sadly that is also in part to the very worst low-income neighborhoods trending toward emptying out. Those areas closest to the vibrant core of Chicago will not be replaced with CHA highrises.

[bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by goat314

Atlanta is somewhat of an anomaly amongst the New South cities. It actually has very Northern racial segregation patterns despite being aesthetically Southern. I've also noticed that Atlanta also has the worst income inequality in the US too. Seems like a lot of people moved there with dreams of striking it rich only to find out that it wasn't all what it is cracked up to be, in many respects. With that said, I hope it finds a balance soon or else we could be looking at Detroit 2.0. Its almost inevitable that at least one of the New South cities will not fair well through the maturation process. If I had to guess, either Dallas or Houston will be the shining star,not so sure about Atlanta and income inequality in Miami is equally disturbing.

Income inequality in Miami has more to do with Immigration than racism. I would say that Atlanta can hold that banner as well as any other US city.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by bobdreamz

Income inequality in Miami has more to do with Immigration than racism. I would say that Atlanta can hold that banner as well as any other US city.

I don't know about that. In recent history Miami has become hyper diverse with the massive influx of a variety of Latin American migrants, but it still has a racial legacy that is not too different than any other Southern city. There is a good book about the history of race and development in South Florida called "A World More Concrete: Real Estate and the Remaking of Jim Crow South Florida". It talks about the numerous racial dislocation of African Americans, the stealing of beach front land from black people, the razing and redlining of African American neighborhoods, its really a great book that gives the development of Miami some good context.

[llamaorama]

The interpretation of these graphs comparing city wide diversity to census tract diversity is subjective.

You could look at how the trend line curves or how many dots are below the 1:1 line, and say that neighborhood diversity falls off a little bit as a city gets more diverse overall. Or you could look at how the trend line still shows a very significant correlation between neighborhood diversity.

Both are true but Mr. Silver is being too glass-half-empty here by saying something like "The Most Diverse Cities Are Often The Most Segregated". No, that would only really be true if things ran in the other direction.

Besides, Chicago and the cities like it are products of a different era than cities like Sacramento. What I see as encouraging is the cities I see as being the "future" of the country as being above the line.

Also is the "is the north more racist than the south" butthurt debate really necessary? Who cares.

[Ryanrule]

The south has a major victim complex going on. You see it in how they react to politics.

[RST500]

Are YIMBYism and Enclavism Compatible?

"While the debate over housing segregation disregards enclavism, it has some legitimacy due to the severity of the housing scarcity, which has caused demographic displacement. If there wasn’t such a scarcity, then the discussion over segregation would change altogether. Under enclavism the battle between YIMBY vs. NIMBY would likely be resolved as different areas would be able to grow at their own rates and figure out their specific zoning and housing needs. On the other hand if YIMBYs are successful in ending the housing crisis and easing displacement, complaints about segregation would be moot or just a symbolic culture war issue."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/a...ism-compatible