Alexandra Bridge replacement | Proposed

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

As much as I like the look of a cable stay bridge, in a climate zone that has lots of freezing rain, they're a bit problematic for dropping ice on cars and people. Port Mann bridge required retrofit almost immediately after opening to address the problem, but even that solution hasn't been foolproof.

This looks fun!

• Video Link

[Kitchissippi]

I'd be happy with something that's a narrower version of Toronto's Prince Edward Viaduct on which the Bloor-Danforth line runs, with wider sidewalks and minus the suicide "veil". Interesting to look at from the side and below, but completely unobtrusive when you are on it.

Now there was forward thinking, the PEV was designed and completed in 1918 with provisions for running rail but the TTC subway didn't run there until 1966.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Any replacement should provide a second deck (or at least provide the space for one to be added later) underneath the roadway for future LRT from Gatineau.

I think that's one of the biggest opportunities of a replacement.

Put the cars on the lower deck and have pedestrians and LRT on top! Is that feasible?

[Harley613]

How would the LRT work on a new Alexandra Bridge? I can't see any potential line that would make sense running across there, yet people keep mentioning it.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Harley613

How would the LRT work on a new Alexandra Bridge? I can't see any potential line that would make sense running across there, yet people keep mentioning it.

Honestly we'll have to wait until next year to see the plans the city is currently studying before we can really say anything, or suggest things. Because we have no clue what they want to do. Use Union Station? go road to the Market? dig a tunnel to connect close to Rideau Station?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Put the cars on the lower deck and have pedestrians and LRT on top! Is that feasible?

LRT underneath so it can go right into the new tunnel under Major's Hill Park.

[Kitchissippi]

The only way I could see it working is if they tunnelled diagonally through Major's Hill Park (staying a good distance away from the US Embassy) and do a station under Mackenzie at Rideau with a connecting ped tunnel to Rideau Station. This would be massively expensive, along with having to engineer a special bridge, plus they also have to figure out how it will work on the Quebec side.

I think my suggestion of digging a tunnel parallel to the Portage Bridge and an exchange at Lyon could end up cheaper and less complicated.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The only way I could see it working is if they tunnelled diagonally through Major's Hill Park (staying a good distance away from the US Embassy) and do a station under Mackenzie at Rideau with a connecting ped tunnel to Rideau Station. This would be massively expensive, along with having to engineer a special bridge, plus they also have to figure out how it will work on the Quebec side.

I think my suggestion of digging a tunnel parallel to the Portage Bridge and an exchange at Lyon could end up cheaper and less complicated.

Therefore is an old ROW leading to the former train station that is still mostly intact. The bicycle rental place and former photo gallery may have to be relocated.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Therefore is an old ROW leading to the former train station that is still mostly intact. The bicycle rental place and former photo gallery may have to be relocated.

Single track and goes through what is not city property. Not to mention, Is that really a good place for a major transfer station? People keep on referring what is now the Senate Building as the "train station". It was a train station building for administration, ticketing and waiting, but what made made it a station — the platforms — are long gone and built over with the Shaw Centre. All that nostalgia is based on the prettiness of the facade and the waiting halls, none of it tempered with practicality. You could drop a billion to make this work, all for the sake of arriving in style with poor connections.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The only way I could see it working is if they tunnelled diagonally through Major's Hill Park (staying a good distance away from the US Embassy) and do a station under Mackenzie at Rideau with a connecting ped tunnel to Rideau Station. This would be massively expensive, along with having to engineer a special bridge, plus they also have to figure out how it will work on the Quebec side.

...

Yes, that would do it. Since Ottawa will not have to pay for it, the "massively expensive" doesn't bother.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The only way I could see it working is if they tunnelled diagonally through Major's Hill Park (staying a good distance away from the US Embassy) and do a station under Mackenzie at Rideau with a connecting ped tunnel to Rideau Station. This would be massively expensive, along with having to engineer a special bridge, plus they also have to figure out how it will work on the Quebec side.

I think my suggestion of digging a tunnel parallel to the Portage Bridge and an exchange at Lyon could end up cheaper and less complicated.

Lol, are ya'll forgetting that there's a rail bed that already exists just below Major's Hill (it doesn't interfere with the Canal OR the Park. The rail bed extends through the old photography museum, and there's literally an old station and a train turnaround tunnel under the Plaza Bridge? It wouldn't be too hard to add some escalators and a stair or two to pop up on Rideau and/or build a Pedestrian Tunnel to the intermediate level below the Farm Boy at Rideau Centre.

And Alumettiere extends as a super-wide boulevard allllllllll the way to Aylmer. Perfect for at-grade light rail. Don't like that route? Make a different one, I just wanted to point out the train terminus already exists in Ottawa. (You'd need to expropriate a bike rental and the Senate committee rooms.


http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2017/08/...hill-park.html

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Single track and goes through what is not city property. Not to mention, Is that really a good place for a major transfer station? People keep on referring what is now the Senate Building as the "train station". It was a train station building for administration, ticketing and waiting, but what made made it a station — the platforms — are long gone and built over with the Shaw Centre. All that nostalgia is based on the prettiness of the facade and the waiting halls, none of it tempered with practicality. You could drop a billion to make this work, all for the sake of arriving in style with poor connections.

Triple track, actually. There were two tram tracks and one train track.



I agree with you that using the old train station would probably be overkill, but I don't think anyone's proposed that either. I've advocated for the old tram station to be used, located under the Wellington (Plaza) bridge where the Rent-a-bike is now. It's already essentially a station cavern. And with the potential (eventual?) reconstruction of the Rideau/Mackenzie/Sussex interchange/intersection/gongshow, a connection to Rideau could be built right under the street. But most people heading downtown would probably walk rather than transfer.



Of course, the ideal solution would probably be the interprovincial tram loop as proposed by the NCC back in the day. It would be able to transport people in both directions and reach more destinations. It would also require a much greater investment.

It's the 80/20 solution, imo. A Plaza Bridge terminus would provide 80% of the benefit of the loop at 20% the cost.

[Kitchissippi]

Riiiiight. It was hard enough for Ottawa to negotiate a route through Rochester Field—an empty field owned by the NCC! You think Gatineau would have a chance of expropriating property in a different city in a different province, and using federal land within full view of Parliament? Dream on.

There is just no way or how you can shoehorn a modern transit station between the Chateau and the Canal, and it would need a ridiculous 200 walk to transfer to the Confederation line. It also sits under one of the most congested and bottlenecked sections of downtown (Sapper's bridge) hardly suitable for bus transfers.

This is the way trains used to sneak past the station building to get to the long gone station platforms, on a single track. Putting that back means removing the tour boat docks and Parks Canada's moorings. Easy-peasy!

[Aylmer]

You're still assuming that the trains would be heading for the train sheds which, as you've pointed out, are no longer there. It's three tracks all the way to the Plaza Bridge, where the tram turnaround was/is.

I calculate the distance between the Canal and the far side of Sussex as 120m. Of course, 120m is not ideal, granted. But it remains 120m. If you've ever walked from O'Connor to Bank, you've covered more distance. It's far from the end of the world.

Presumably, anyone transferring to a bus would catch it at either Rideau/Sussex (120m) or the bus stop at Confederation Sq (40m).


As for the administrative hurdles, they're definitely there. I disagree with you as to how hard the NCC would fight to maintain the ROW as the linear Tavern-on-the-Hill parking lot, but I completely agree that it'd be difficult. But this is a major project; there will be huge hurdles no matter where it goes. Ottawa didn't abandon LRT just because it wasn't easy and painless, because doing nothing has a far more bitter and lasting taste.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

You're still assuming that the trains would be heading for the train sheds which, as you've pointed out, are no longer there. It's three tracks all the way to the Plaza Bridge, where the tram turnaround was/is.

I calculate the distance between the Canal and the far side of Sussex as 120m. Of course, 120m is not ideal, granted. But it remains 120m. If you've ever walked from O'Connor to Bank, you've covered more distance. It's far from the end of the world.

Presumably, anyone transferring to a bus would catch it at either Rideau/Sussex (120m) or the bus stop at Confederation Sq (40m).


As for the administrative hurdles, they're definitely there. I disagree with you as to how hard the NCC would fight to maintain the ROW as the linear Tavern-on-the-Hill parking lot, but I completely agree that it'd be difficult. But this is a major project; there will be huge hurdles no matter where it goes. Ottawa didn't abandon LRT just because it wasn't easy and painless, because doing nothing has a far more bitter and lasting taste.

The NCC owns the old photography museum and uses it as committee rooms for the Senate across the street. The structure was built just recently (20+ years ago) and would need to be altered, yes. But the NCC owns the rest, and it's unused at the moment.

Train terminus would be beneath the Plaza Bridge, with a set of stairs going up on the Chateau Side and the Senate Side. A pedestrian tunnel would take you downhill to the Rideau Centre, connecting to the vestibule just beneath the new Farm Boy (one escalator up to get to Rideau Centre, and a loooong ride down to Transfer to Line 1). Look at Union Station in Toronto, Berri-UQAM in Montreal, or any other transfer station in the world. Some of them are a block or more of walking. I'd say the Gatineau/Confederation line transfer walk would be medium-to-short relative to these other stations.

I'd say it's a miracle that land exists downtown that used to be a train bed, and is unused by bikes, pedestrians, or traffic, and is physically separated by large cliffs from everything. To not utilize this to it's full potential and with such a cheap and elegant solution is a colossal waste.

[Kitchissippi]

All I am saying is Gatineau should not hinge its LRT plans on the Alexandra Bridge or a station at the Chateau because there are other better and more affordable options out there. If all the bridges and tunnelling were considered and studied for a modern transit route across the river, I doubt the Alexandra bridge would come out on top as the ideal solution. I just don't see much science or practical analysis beyond "this used to be a railway."

What's clearly the major transit issue here is how to move people between Ottawa's CBD and Gatineau's Portage/Chaudieres complexes as efficiently as possible, they're two of the capital's largest employment nodes. That's where the effort and money should be invested. Looking at the problem this way turns it into a shared interest that requires mutual attention from both cities of Ottawa and Gatineau, and the Federal Government.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The only way I could see it working is if they tunnelled diagonally through Major's Hill Park (staying a good distance away from the US Embassy)

Why would they have to stay a good distance away from the US Embassy?

And what's a "good distance"?

[Aylmer]

Again, it's an 80/20 thing. Tunnelling under the river would likely result in easier transfers to Ottawa's LRT. A surface loop would likely result in more capacity and access to more destinations. But there's a legitimate question as to whether, say, shaving [x] number of minutes would be worth [x] hundreds of millions. The Alexandra/Plaza option scores high in terms of value: Although it's not the best transportation-wise, it provides adequate transportation at a cost which is likely much, much lower than the alternatives, considering that much of the infrastructure necessary for it is either there (ROW, station cavern) or going to be rebuilt anyways (Alexandra Bridge).

But of course, we're all talking in the abstract here. If you could save 5 minutes per trip for an extra $50M, it would be a no-brainer to go with the Portage option. If it turns out to be a 2 minute savings for $200M, perhaps less so. We just don't have the numbers here.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There is just no way or how you can shoehorn a modern transit station between the Chateau and the Canal, and it would need a ridiculous 200 walk to transfer to the Confederation line.

That's funny: OC Transpo doesn't think 200m is too far for bus:bus passengers to have to walk, in the elements, for transfers.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Why would they have to stay a good distance away from the US Embassy?

And what's a "good distance"?

Anything outside the surface physical security perimeter would be fine.