Montreal-Blair Road Transit Priority Corridor [St. Laurent Blvd to Shefford Rd]

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No longer will it be as easy to shop or go to the movies by transit in Beacon Hill.

I live in Beacon Hill and without knowing how the routes will be routed & scheduled post-phase 2, we honestly have no idea if things will be worse than today.

I can only assume the peak hour routes will terminate at Montreal Road Station and no longer travel the 174 to Blair. As for the 12, 23, 24...

But the past decade leads me to think the city will do whatever is cheapest for them, and just screw actual riders.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I live in Beacon Hill and without knowing how the routes will be routed & scheduled post-phase 2, we honestly have no idea if things will be worse than today.

I can only assume the peak hour routes will terminate at Montreal Road Station and no longer travel the 174 to Blair. As for the 12, 23, 24...

But the past decade leads me to think the city will do whatever is cheapest for them, and just screw actual riders.

I agree that we don't know what will actually happen. It is a no brainer that, routes 21, 28 and 31 (which currently use the 174 to get to Blair from Montreal Rd) will terminate at the new station. While it does mean a transfer for those who are going to Blair Station, I am not sure if that is a big loss. For those going further west, or going east, this change won't mater.

Regarding route 12, the current loopy route doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Having it continue on Montreal Rd to the new station seems to make more sense. It would then allow for a better connection to Orleans (not everyone is going to/from downtown). Route 24 could be rerouted to serve Jasmine.

Speaking of route 24, it probably doesn't make sense to reroute it to the new station. A route will be needed to serve Ogilvie (and Jasmine) anyway, and it is probably slightly faster to go to Blair than via the new station.

As for route 23, I would be shocked if it was rerouted to the new station though. It would be a significant detour, and it would abandon a lot of local traffic along the way.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree that we don't know what will actually happen. It is a no brainer that, routes 21, 28 and 31 (which currently use the 174 to get to Blair from Montreal Rd) will terminate at the new station. While it does mean a transfer for those who are going to Blair Station, I am not sure if that is a big loss. For those going further west, or going east, this change won't mater.

I wonder how Route 28 and 31 will change. A bus layover east of the station won't allow Route 28 to serve Montreal Station before terminating. My guess would be northbound Route 28 trips will combine with Route 21 trips, looping around Canotek before returning to Montreal Station and the layover loop.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I wonder how Route 28 and 31 will change. A bus layover east of the station won't allow Route 28 to serve Montreal Station before terminating. My guess would be northbound Route 28 trips will combine with Route 21 trips, looping around Canotek before returning to Montreal Station and the layover loop.

That is one option. They could also turn around using Sinclair St/Lerner Way/Miss Ottawa St. This is only about a 2km detour.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Let's be fully accurate. It is a dead transfer station that offers no services. We talk about 15 minute neighborhoods. What is worse when accessibility to basic services will not be on the local bus route but requires a transfer in the future. This is about efficiency and commuting over reducing car dependence . No longer will it be as easy to shop or go to the movies by transit in Beacon Hill. Those short trips become substantially longer and less reliable when the same trip by car remains at 5 or 10 minutes

First off all, 15 min neighbourhoods refer to 15 min on foot. Not by transit or car. So the bus routes have very little to do with this.

Next, I don't get why some service going to Montreal Rd would suddenly mean that it is, "No longer will it be as easy to shop or go to the movies by transit in Beacon Hill." Also, if OCT does something boneheaded, it's easy to advocate for a few routes to Gloucester Centre.

That said, this is very frequency makes a huge difference. Nobody will mind go to Montreal, if the buses are frequent.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

First off all, 15 min neighbourhoods refer to 15 min on foot. Not by transit or car. So the bus routes have very little to do with this.

Next, I don't get why some service going to Montreal Rd would suddenly mean that it is, "No longer will it be as easy to shop or go to the movies by transit in Beacon Hill." Also, if OCT does something boneheaded, it's easy to advocate for a few routes to Gloucester Centre.

That said, this is very frequency makes a huge difference. Nobody will mind go to Montreal, if the buses are frequent.

I know what a 15 minute neighbourhood is. And the city also knows that it will be very difficult to retrofit most mid-late 20th century nighbourhoods to meet that 15 minute standard. Beacon Hill North is a perfect example.

My point is that if we can't do 15 minutes on foot, and we impose a transit system that can't even meet that 15 minute standard by bus, then is that not doubly bad?

We also have seen that the city won't provide frequent neighbourhood transit . Even if we provide 15 minute frequency (we know it will be 30 minute or worse at night), we can't get people from Blair to Beacon Hill reliably in 15 minutes with a transfer at Montreal Road. It doesn't matter how frequent LRT is. The trip is measured by its worst component, that infamous last mile into the neighbourhood where people actually live.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Next, I don't get why some service going to Montreal Rd would suddenly mean that it is, "No longer will it be as easy to shop or go to the movies by transit in Beacon Hill." Also, if OCT does something boneheaded, it's easy to advocate for a few routes to Gloucester Centre.

I think he is assuming the 12 will terminate at the transit station rather than loop back to the Gloucester centre.

I wouldn’t say “advocating for a few routes” is “easy” in Ottawa.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Regarding route 12, the current loopy route doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Having it continue on Montreal Rd to the new station seems to make more sense. It would then allow for a better connection to Orleans (not everyone is going to/from downtown). Route 24 could be rerouted to serve Jasmine.

Speaking of route 24, it probably doesn't make sense to reroute it to the new station. A route will be needed to serve Ogilvie (and Jasmine) anyway, and it is probably slightly faster to go to Blair than via the new station.

The 224 (when it resumes post-pandemic) will certainly end at Montreal. If they reroute the 12 to end at Montreal they better double the frequency of the 24. Otherwise it would be a massive service cut along Ogilvie & Jasmine. Rerouting the 12 would be more palatable if they had built an LRT station at Jasmine, but that isn't happening any time soon, if ever.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think he is assuming the 12 will terminate at the transit station rather than loop back to the Gloucester centre.

Not saying that this should it happen. But, if it did, I doubt it's that damaging unless the 12's frequency is just crap. Transfers ain't great. But a high frequency LRT that connects to a bus running every 15 mins isn't extremely inconvenient.

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wouldn’t say advocating for a few routes” is “easy” in Ottawa.

Agreed. My point was just that bus routes can be changed with some noise (loudness TBD). It's the infrastructure gaps that are much more immutable.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not saying that this should it happen. But, if it did, I doubt it's that damaging unless the 12's frequency is just crap. Transfers ain't great. But a high frequency LRT that connects to a bus running every 15 mins isn't extremely inconvenient.



Agreed. My point was just that bus routes can be changed with some noise (loudness TBD). It's the infrastructure gaps that are much more immutable.

I mostly agree, but I would also see how losing a single bus access to several major shopping hubs would be frustrating. My local route (the 20) is slow AF, but it is useful for getting to lots of different things, a hospital, library, at least 6 supermarkets, etc. It is not much good to me, but a low income senior would probably like it.

[Truenorth00]

I do keep saying that Ottawa needs to to learn from Toronto and the TTC's high frequency suburban bus service.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I do keep saying that Ottawa needs to to learn from Toronto and the TTC's high frequency suburban bus service.

Ottawa needs a completely new mindset. Ever since optimization, they are consumed with capacity planning rather than trying to improve service and getting more people (more revenue) to use the system.

I guess nobody is looking at what Kingston and Brampton did to substantially increase ridership.

Reece Martin this week made a brief comment about the use of articulated buses for capacity planning and reducing frequency. I think he was pointing his finger at York Region and Viva, but Ottawa is probably an even bigger offender where larger buses have been introduced over decades allowing repeated frequency cuts. In the long run, this is counterproductive as the system becomes more and more difficult to use especially as more transfers have become a necessity. The most valuable rider, the ones making short trips, get pushed off of transit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I mostly agree, but I would also see how losing a single bus access to several major shopping hubs would be frustrating. My local route (the 20) is slow AF, but it is useful for getting to lots of different things, a hospital, library, at least 6 supermarkets, etc. It is not much good to me, but a low income senior would probably like it.

My question is who will be loosing single bus access to “major shopping hubs?” Montreal Rd between Blair and Ogilvie is pretty much a dead zone with little retail and relatively low population density. The largest shopping hub along that stretch is Ogilvie Square, but it’s at the corner of Montreal and Ogilvie Roads, so no one will lose single bus access to it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

My question is who will be loosing single bus access to “major shopping hubs?” Montreal Rd between Blair and Ogilvie is pretty much a dead zone with little retail and relatively low population density. The largest shopping hub along that stretch is Ogilvie Square, but it’s at the corner of Montreal and Ogilvie Roads, so no one will lose single bus access to it.

Sorry, I meant the people on Montreal road will lose access to the hubs on ogilve (Costco complex, Gloucester Centre, and to a lesser extent the small plazas further up the road.)

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sorry, I meant the people on Montreal road will lose access to the hubs on ogilve (Costco complex, Gloucester Centre, and to a lesser extent the small plazas further up the road.)

arena, community centre, splash pool, Canadian Tire, offices surrounding Gloucester Centre.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by roger1818

My question is who will be loosing single bus access to “major shopping hubs?” Montreal Rd between Blair and Ogilvie is pretty much a dead zone with little retail and relatively low population density. The largest shopping hub along that stretch is Ogilvie Square, but it’s at the corner of Montreal and Ogilvie Roads, so no one will lose single bus access to it.

Sorry, low density? The area is full of row houses and mid rise apartment buildings. It's not downtown level dense, but denser than many other residential areas.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sorry, I meant the people on Montreal road will lose access to the hubs on ogilve (Costco complex, Gloucester Centre, and to a lesser extent the small plazas further up the road.)

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

arena, community centre, splash pool, Canadian Tire, offices surrounding Gloucester Centre.

Alternative viewpoint.

Maybe as the corridor develops we should ensure there's adequate retail and community amenities there? The best transport system is one which actually avoids trips in the first place.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alternative viewpoint.

Maybe as the corridor develops we should ensure there's adequate retail and community amenities there? The best transport system is one which actually avoids trips in the first place.

Yeah, in theory that would be the best solution, but at best it is a decades long process without massive investment from the city and/or NCC (and neither seem likely).

[lrt's friend]

A transit system should promote mobility. People should be able to access many places in the city otherwise it can't hope to compete with auto travel.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yeah, in theory that would be the best solution, but at best it is a decades long process without massive investment from the city and/or NCC (and neither seem likely).

Not suggesting it's a replacement for good service. But I do think there's a certain fixation on what people are used to. Since people in Beacon Hill have always gone to Gloucester Centre, this should be the case 10-15 years from now when the Montreal-Blair corridor has seen substantial development.

All that said, Ottawa really has a ton of work to do on buses. And the whole idea that 15-30 min headways is acceptable needs to die.