HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 3:48 PM
MoreTrains MoreTrains is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 858
The city should just not expand the 174 which would drive LRT use even higher. No 174 expansion = savings, which could be put into running it along the south side and expanding the P&R lots with multi floor garages... Just a thought.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 4:16 PM
MountainView MountainView is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,837
I’m just going to add my two cents to this conversation because I previously lived in Calgary, specifically in the Northwest where the C-train runs in the median of Crowchild Trail and I used transit almost daily. Crowchild Trail is similar to the 174 as it is not technically a ‘highway’. The speed limit is maximum 80km/h in the NW and reduces to 60km/h near University of Calgary where it because a similar express style route like Bronson Avenue. Yes, it has on and off-ramps but it is nothing like the 417 in terms of speed. Anyways… I find the median LRT in Calgary to work perfectly. The local buses run in a hub and spoke sort of system where local routes go to the nearest LRT station where passengers transfer. These suburban stations also have small to medium sized P&R lots. The stations are all central platforms and are enclosed (something we would need to do in Orleans – can’t cheap out here). Yes, you are basically standing in the middle of a road waiting for a train, but it doesn’t seem that way. My knowledge of Orleans is relatively poor compared to the rest of Ottawa. But TOD is definitely an option, as that is what is happening around the Brentwood Station in Calgary’s NW. It’s also a direct route and doesn’t zig-zag through a community, we don’t need to expropriate anything. If LRT is going to run near the 174 it should be median LRT and not on one-side or the other. Otherwise route the LRT along Innes (not sure if this is what Orleans wants/needs).

Crowchild Station:




Anyways...I won't be a user of the Eastern LRT line because I don't work/live in Orleans, but I just wanted to say the user experience and functionality isn't as bad as some people think; I actually found it quite good.

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 4:57 PM
Capital Shaun Capital Shaun is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 860
Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. If the stations have proper pedestrian connections to nearby areas then the exact location around the 174 shouldn't matter as much. The median just eliminates potential integration with nearby buildings.

Either way, I still want a station between Blair & Montreal.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 5:27 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 11,482
At at least two of the Orleans stations (Jeanne D'Arc & Orleans Drive) the main walk up catchment area is equally drawn from both sides of the highway so a median alignment actually minimizes average walking times. At Place D'Orleans there are major redevelopment plans for the area north of the highway with several large office towers planned, so a median alignment makes sense there too as it minimizes average walking times to both north side (TOD area) and south side (the mall) destinations. The only spot where a median alignment has a negative effect on catchment areas is Montreal Rd where almost all ridership would come from the north side. So, the most advantageous alignment, IMO, would be staying on the north side until just before it hits Orleans, then moving to the median there. That would also maximize the usefulnesses of a station at Jasmine Crescent.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 5:32 PM
Capital Shaun Capital Shaun is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
At at least two of the Orleans stations (Jeanne D'Arc & Orleans Drive) the main walk up catchment area is equally drawn from both sides of the highway so a median alignment actually minimizes average walking times. At Place D'Orleans there are major redevelopment plans for the area north of the highway with several large office towers planned, so a median alignment makes sense there too as it minimizes average walking times to both north side (TOD area) and south side (the mall) destinations. The only spot where a median alignment has a negative effect on catchment areas is Montreal Rd where almost all ridership would come from the north side. So, the most advantageous alignment, IMO, would be staying on the north side until just before it hits Orleans, then moving to the median there. That would also maximize the usefulnesses of a station at Jasmine Crescent.

Someone else had mentioned that Jeanne D'Arc has potential along Youville dr. Your right about Orleans blvd, that's just a sea of suburban housing on both sides. I agree with you that it should be on the north side in Beacon Hill. It's the green belt on the other side of the 174.

Last edited by Capital Shaun; Jan 27, 2015 at 5:39 PM. Reason: adding more thoughts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 7:51 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
It's unusual that Ottawa doesn't have Traffic Signal Priority for emergency vehicles anywhere in the city, which would be a good starting point. Where I'm from (and where my parents live) the city just replaced their entire priority system, going from an optical emitter to a radio based system that can predict which way the vehicle will turn based on the turn signals on the vehicle. This system is fully compatible with transit vehicles in the future, should they ever choose to implement it.
That's sorcery! Ottawa, the high-tech capital of the Ottawa Valley, could never do such a thing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 7:52 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACmodels View Post
LRT to run along centre of 174....

uh man you have no idea what just came into my head...
The median segments of the Calgary LRT came into my head.

Ugh.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 7:53 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvergate View Post
City of Ottawa in 10 years: Well we wanted people to ride the train, so we gave them a train. Why aren't they riding the train?
City of Ottawa all the time: we don't like sprawl. Here, here's your approval for sprawl, Mr. Developer? Why do we have so much sprawl? We don't like sprawl...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 7:58 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
How does this really encourage TOD. It doesn't .
It doesn't. In fact, it actively prevents TOD.

Which is entirely consistent with the nature of Ottawa's planning documents, which, near as I can tell, are expensive, and uncomfortable to use, toilet paper.

Quote:
Technically, my home and office are within this magic 5km distance of the O-Train but it is the same station which is within that distance of both. In other words, it is of no value at all.
I'd like to know what's magical about 5 km. That's the distance I travel by bus in the city centre each morning. It not infrequently takes up to an hour. We are spending crap-tons of money for marginal improvements to suburban transit times, without attendant capacity to build/rebuild suburbs in a transit-oriented way, and giving the central city the transit shaft.

Enjoy my taxes, Orleans.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 8:03 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capital Shaun View Post
Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. If the stations have proper pedestrian connections to nearby areas then the exact location around the 174 shouldn't matter as much. The median just eliminates potential integration with nearby buildings.

Either way, I still want a station between Blair & Montreal.
Development In The General Vicinity of Transit != Transit-Oriented Development.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 8:22 PM
Capital Shaun Capital Shaun is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Development In The General Vicinity of Transit != Transit-Oriented Development.
I'm very well aware of that. Which is why I'm not a big fan of running the LRT in the median of the 174.

But putting the LRT where there's actual TOD would involve tunneling under St-Joseph. Given the costs that's simply not going to happen.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 8:46 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
I agree it should be north side (maximize catchment) as far as the Greenbelt.

Just before Jeanne d'Arc, the median widens to about 18m, which is sufficient there to build the train with no reconstruction of the interchange (the overpass would only need rehabilitation if necessary). The Orleans Boulevard overpass would be able to stay in place as well.

One thing I would do is convert the bus lanes to general purpose lanes to allow for 6 lanes of traffic to travel through, which only needs some lane reconfiguration near the interchanges.

At Place d'Orleans, room is insufficient for the LRT to remain in the median without interchange reconstruction though (median narrows to 12 m and there is no room to add additional lanes at the side as is). Either an alignment shift or ramp reconfiguration on both sides is necessary there, especially as it needs to accommodate a station as well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 9:02 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 11,482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I'd like to know what's magical about 5 km. That's the distance I travel by bus in the city centre each morning. It not infrequently takes up to an hour. We are spending crap-tons of money for marginal improvements to suburban transit times, without attendant capacity to build/rebuild suburbs in a transit-oriented way, and giving the central city the transit shaft.
5km is 15-minute biking distance, on average. Not sure if that's what the city is actually intending to say with the 5km stat, though.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 9:12 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 11,482
I wonder if a better option for Orleans would be median on-street LRT on St. Joseph. Frequencies & ridership in Orleans are low enough that it's manageable. Costs are probably comparable, and it would have a greater intensification & TOD benefit. Travel time would be slower, but if proper traffic light control was applied (which is NOT rocket science, is quite easy to do), it wouldn't be that much slower.

One of the benefits of the city's decision to use LRT techology instead of light metro is the ability to run on street in parts of the system where demand is low enough to justify it... a shame the city isn't actually using that ability.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 10:08 PM
silvergate's Avatar
silvergate silvergate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 629
So instead of widening the highway. the province (if the 174 was/will be) uploaded to them, can simply convert the bus lanes to car lanes, and use the money saved to build the LRT. The province, in it's infinite wisdom, can even do some calculations and use some Rockland tax money towards this. If it's going to be part of Metro Ottawa, then it's going to pay for Ottawa's Metro.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2015, 1:33 AM
kevinbottawa kevinbottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,229
I don't necessarily want to see the LRT run in the 174 median, but it works pretty well on the Yonge-University-Spadina line north of Eglinton West Station with Allen Road on either side. The surrounding areas are kinda similar to Orleans. An Orleans Blvd station would be like Glencairn Station; mostly surrounded by low density residential and not used as much. Like with Yorkdale Station and the mall, it would be quite a walk to Place d'Orleans from the mall but it's doable. If the LRT line through Orleans has enclosed stations and is anything like Eglinton West to Yorkdale I'd be ok with that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2015, 5:50 PM
rocketphish's Avatar
rocketphish rocketphish is offline
Planet Ottawa and beyond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 12,335
Open houses spotlight proposed eastern LRT

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: February 1, 2015, Last Updated: February 1, 2015 9:07 PM EST


Controversy surrounding the city’s preferred route for the western extension of light rail often dominates discussion about Ottawa’s long-term transit blueprint.

But that could soon change as the plan for extending the rail line east of Blair station steps into the spotlight this week at a series of open houses in the east end.

Here are some key details and dates to keep in mind.

Where will the train go?

The first phase of LRT will see the 12.5-kilometre Confederation Line, which is now under construction, terminate at Blair station. The second phase would see trains run along the north side of Highway 174 from Blair to the proposed St-Joseph station near Montreal Road.

Eastbound trains would then exit the elevated station, cross above the on- and off-ramps for Montreal Road and follow a natural dip in the topography around Greens Creek into the Highway 174 median. Trains would travel down the median until the terminus station at Place d’Orléans.

Why does the proposed eastern alignment seem less controversial or complicated than the western alignment?

The preferred route for the western extension travels through a densely-populated, built-up residential area and requires the co-operation of the National Capital Commission.

Not so out east, where the train is more or less going in a straight line through an existing transit and transportation corridor that east-end residents and transit users are keenly familiar with.

“I think it is pretty straightforward,” said Cumberland Coun. Stephen Blais.

Where will the stations be?

The project would add 10 kilometres of rail between Blair station and Place d’Orléans, and four new stations — St-Joseph, Jeanne D’Arc, Prom d’Orléans and Place d’Orléans.

A potential future extension to Trim Road could add up to four more stations and 3.5 kilometres of rail.

How much is this going to cost?

The overall price tag for phase two — designed to extend rail service to the east, west and south — is $3 billion. The eastern portion, from Blair to Place d’Orléans, is $500 million, in 2013 dollars, according to the city.

This amount does not include vehicles or an additional maintenance and storage facility that would be needed for phase two.

Where and when are the open houses?

Tuesday, Feb. 3
R.J. Kennedy Memorial Community Centre
1115 Dunning Rd., Cumberland
6-9 p.m. (presentation at 7 p.m.)

Wednesday, Feb. 4
Bob MacQuarrie Orléans Recreation Complex
1490 Youville Dr., Orléans
6-9 p.m. (presentation at 7 p.m.)

Thursday, Feb. 5
Guy Faubert Hall
954 Giroux St., Rockland
6-9 p.m. (presentation at 7 p.m.)


What happens next?

The city is co-ordinating its current environmental assessment (EA) for the extension of the LRT from Blair station with a separate EA on the widening of highways 174 and 17, which it’s conducting in partnership with the United Counties of Prescott and Russell.

The partnership, and the counties’ specific interest in the highway widening east of Trim, explains why one of the open houses is to be held in Rockland.

Because each segment of the 174 is a bit different, there is room in some spots to widen it on the inside, while in other spots the widening will happen on the outside, Blais said.

The existing rapid bus lanes will become redundant once the rail line is extended, so a good chunk of the widening will already be taken care of, he added.

The city hopes to pin down its preferred eastern corridor this spring so it can proceed with the rest of the required analysis as part of the EA and be in a position to apply for funding from other levels of government for phase two later this year.

mpearson@ottawacitizen.com
Twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...ed-eastern-lrt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2015, 8:12 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
This amount does not include vehicles or an additional maintenance and storage facility that would be needed for phase two.
Perhaps I've missed it before, but is there any information about where a second MSF would go? The only thing I've heard related to this is that there might be one at Bowesville in the future, but it will be a long time before the Trillium Line is converted to LRT. Queensway garage would be a pretty great location, but I don't think it's a big enough piece of land, and the west extension would have to go at the same time as the east. It doesn't make much sense to add a second MSF east of the downtown tunnel though.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2015, 8:29 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,551
4 stations in Orleans up to Place d'Orleans and another possible 4 to Trim!!!

CAN I REPEAT? 8 STATIONS IN ORLEANS IS RIDICULOUS!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2015, 8:30 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 11,482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
Perhaps I've missed it before, but is there any information about where a second MSF would go? The only thing I've heard related to this is that there might be one at Bowesville in the future, but it will be a long time before the Trillium Line is converted to LRT. Queensway garage would be a pretty great location, but I don't think it's a big enough piece of land, and the west extension would have to go at the same time as the east. It doesn't make much sense to add a second MSF east of the downtown tunnel though.
I don't think any new MSF facilities will have to be built for the Orleans extension. New trains will definitely have to be acquired though.

The $500M cost quoted for the Orleans extension does not factor in vehicle costs or inflation through to construction years. Vehicles are excluded because the City will be acquiring additional vehicles directly from RTG using the options it has in the Phase 1 contract, so as it won't be tendered, it's separated into its own budget.

The total cost of Phase 2 excluding inflation & vehicles is $1.98B:
-Orleans: $500M
-Tunneys-Baseline: $980M
-Baseline-Bayshore: $400M
-Bowesville: $100M
Inclusive of vehicles & inflation it rises to $2.925B.

It adds up to $2.925B when inflation & vehicles are thrown in. Thus you can say that inflation/vehicles adds 1.4773X the cost. Applying that cost proportionally to all projects means the total cost of each component is:
-Orleans: $739M
-Tunneys-Baseline: $1448M
-Baseline-Bayshore: $591M
-Bowesville: $148M
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:42 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.