General STO News and Rapibus System

[Cre47]

I'm starting this thread - and this will likely in the long range images of the construction of it.

Funding was made official last week by the municipal and provincial governments. Construction is expected to start in 2008 with completion by 2010.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...us-071026.html

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Cre47

I'm starting this thread - and this will likely in the long range images of the construction of it.

Funding was made official last week by the municipal and provincial governments. Construction is expected to start in 2008 with completion by 2010.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...us-071026.html

I can't believe they want ahead with this, when the railway would have been available for a commuter train. IMO, it's a big waste of money. It's fun to see money for transit, but it's not a worthwile project. I mean the buses will even share the trains infrastructures (bridges).

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I'm with d_jeffrey on this one.

Yeah, it's always great to see money go into transit infrastructure, but not like this where it's spent on the wrong thing. I can't believe people(on both sides of the river) think that BRT si still the way to go, because it "isn't broken".

Gatineau could have easily had a very fast and effective commuter train down to Hull and Ottawa, but chose BRT because the "return on investment" would be greater. If they ahd gone with Commuter/LRT instead of BRT, it would easily become a major leap in terms of integrating the transit structures of both cities, but is now a missed opportunity. Gatineau is Quebec's fourth largest city after Montreal, Laval and Quebec. It also makes up part of a major metro area of nearly 1,300,000. Such a waste.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

I'm with d_jeffrey on this one.

Yeah, it's always great to see money go into transit infrastructure, but not like this where it's spent on the wrong thing. I can't believe people(on both sides of the river) think that BRT si still the way to go, because it "isn't broken".

Gatineau could have easily had a very fast and effective commuter train down to Hull and Ottawa, but chose BRT because the "return on investment" would be greater. If they ahd gone with Commuter/LRT instead of BRT, it would easily become a major leap in terms of integrating the transit structures of both cities, but is now a missed opportunity. Gatineau is Quebec's fourth largest city after Montreal, Laval and Quebec. It also makes up part of a major metro area of nearly 1,300,000. Such a waste.

They were blunt and mentionned they didn't even study commuter train, only LRT.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Oh, good lord.

If they studies commuter, then maybe our transit systems would be a little more integrated.

[Dado]

Now that the Domtar/E. B. Eddy plant has closed and the railway is no longer needed for freight, one wonders if the Rapibus project won't just build over the railway instead of beside it.

I find STO/Gatineau even more lame-brained than Ottawa, if that's possible. They were saying the other day that they would go ahead with their project because they can't wait for Ottawa to decide what to do to. That's disingenious because what they wanted was for Ottawa to let it use the Prince of Wales bridge for its project and link to the Transitway at Bayview. In other words, they wanted to put the Prince of Wales bridge permanently out of commission as a railway facility.

I think it's time for the NCC and the feds to buy up the railway line in Quebec and its downtown Hull spur that goes right past federal government buildings, scuttle the Rapibus project (CRapibus anyone?) and start pushing the pair of cities in the right direction for once. But I doubt the NCC has that kind of will or vision.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I think it's time for the NCC and the feds to buy up the railway line in Quebec and its downtown Hull spur that goes right past federal government buildings, scuttle the Rapibus project (CRapibus anyone?) and start pushing the pair of cities in the right direction for once. But I doubt the NCC has that kind of will or vision.

Ironically, I thought of something similar. Run the O-Train over the PoW Bridge and instead continuing north to the Casino, heads east and follows the Rail ROW which I believe goes right up to beside the Portage Bridge...

[lrt's friend]

1. Orleans South to Gatineau via Innes, Hurdman, Downtown. Trains alternating to downtown Hull and to Gatineau via the Casino

2. Barrhaven-Blair via Riverside South, South Keys, Carleton, Downtown, Montreal Road

3. Airport - Rockcliffe via South Keys, Carleton, Downtown, Montreal Road

Good Luck in getting Ottawa, Gatineau, Ontario, Quebec and the feds to all work together. That is why we have had such poorly integrated transit since day 1.

[Acajack]

The problem with running the O-Train over the Prince of Wales Bridge to and from Gatineau is that origin-destination studies show that there isn’t that much demand along this transportation corridor.

In Québec, the line runs east from the river into old Gatineau, Masson and Buckingham. Not that many people from these areas are going to work in the inner west of Ottawa (where the O-Train currently runs). Gatineau residents who work at Tunney’s Pasture, for example, tend to live in the western parts of the city, such as Aylmer and the Plateau. The train wouldn’t do anything for them.

Studies show the main employment destinations from the eastern parts of the Outaouais (where the train line runs) are downtown Hull, downtown Ottawa, north-central Hull around Boul. St-Joseph, and the inner east part of Ottawa (Montreal Rd/St-Laurent/Vanier).

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

The Rapibus ends now there, and the UQO will have a new campus. This alone makes sense to extend the O-Train to the POW bridge, and have a major bus transfer station there. This could remove buses through DT, when the service frequency will be high enough. But again, this is in a global transit system, and doesn't stand much on its own.

Without the Rapibus, I agree that it wouldn't address much to extend the O-Train there, but again, there should be a loop to DT hull, where 30 000 workers are, and it would offer a non bus alternative, as the others forumers have posted.

[lrt's friend]

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

All you need at the south end of the POW bridge is the rail to allow the trains to turn into the proposed downtown tunnel. I fully agree that an Airport or Barrhaven to Gatineau route is pointless. There would be too little through traffic at Bayview and too many transfers.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Ironically, I thought of something similar. Run the O-Train over the PoW Bridge and instead continuing north to the Casino, heads east and follows the Rail ROW which I believe goes right up to beside the Portage Bridge...

I'd do both, since there is not much point in sending the train back across the river (morning) empty. Here's how I would arrange it (again, morning):

1. Bayview to Hull via Domtar spur
2. Hull to Casino (this will require that the old tram/CPR bridge over the main line be reopened and a new bit of track on a northward arc be built to join it up to the existing line so as to avoid underway back-up manoeuvres)
3. Casino to Bayview

Get two or three trains doing that and we solve a bunch of problems all at once, not the least of which is the mess that is Rideau Street. At Bayview, people could transfer to the multitude of deadheading eastbound buses through downtown Ottawa. Note that this is an interim solution until we get our downtown tunnel, at which point things could be rearranged a bit to send trains directly to downtown Ottawa. For the purposes of scheduling simplicity, we would have the existing O-Trains continue north from their present terminus while acquiring some new dual-mode vehicles to supplement the fleet on this corridor. Combined with an immediate extension to Leitrim, we're looking at maybe half a dozen new trains, all dual-mode.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Dado

I'd do both, since there is not much point in sending the train back across the river (morning) empty. Here's how I would arrange it (again, morning):

1. Bayview to Hull via Domtar spur
2. Hull to Casino (this will require that the old tram/CPR bridge over the main line be reopened and a new bit of track on a northward arc be built to join it up to the existing line so as to avoid underway back-up manoeuvres)
3. Casino to Bayview

Get two or three trains doing that and we solve a bunch of problems all at once, not the least of which is the mess that is Rideau Street. At Bayview, people could transfer to the multitude of deadheading eastbound buses through downtown Ottawa. Note that this is an interim solution until we get our downtown tunnel, at which point things could be rearranged a bit to send trains directly to downtown Ottawa. For the purposes of scheduling simplicity, we would have the existing O-Trains continue north from their present terminus while acquiring some new dual-mode vehicles to supplement the fleet on this corridor. Combined with an immediate extension to Leitrim, we're looking at maybe half a dozen new trains, all dual-mode.

Would it be possible to draw this on a map(google maps/Live Search) so that I could visually understand where this is going and what it will look like?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The problem with running the O-Train over the Prince of Wales Bridge to and from Gatineau is that origin-destination studies show that there isn’t that much demand along this transportation corridor.

So why is STO going ahead with its Rapibus project on the exact same corridor (and make no mistake: STO wants those buses going over the PoW Bridge because the other bridges are still congested)?

In Québec, the line runs east from the river into old Gatineau, Masson and Buckingham. Not that many people from these areas are going to work in the inner west of Ottawa (where the O-Train currently runs). Gatineau residents who work at Tunney’s Pasture, for example, tend to live in the western parts of the city, such as Aylmer and the Plateau. The train wouldn’t do anything for them.

True, but no project currently on the books anywhere would do anything for them, so the above is a red herring. What those people need is for STO to make use of the centre lane on the Champlain Bridge a bit more and then make some arrangements with OC Transpo and the City of Ottawa to get to Tunney's Pasture without delay. The easiest way might be to head west on the parkway and enter the Transitway at Dominion. Another would be to get the NCC to reverse the flow on the left westbound lane of the Parkway between Island Park and Tunney's Pasture.

Studies show the main employment destinations from the eastern parts of the Outaouais (where the train line runs) are downtown Hull, downtown Ottawa, north-central Hull around Boul. St-Joseph, and the inner east part of Ottawa (Montreal Rd/St-Laurent/Vanier).

So how do you propose to get those headed to downtown Ottawa across the river? It's not like we'll be getting any new bridges any time soon, and even if we do once we have a tunnel the pressure to get rid of STO buses will begin to mount. But the PoW Bridge is there, and OC Transpo currently has unused eastbound bus capacity since overall there are more transit users in Ottawa's east end than in its west end. And once we have a rail tunnel, we'll still have unused eastbound rail capacity relative to westbound.

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

The notion of anyone kowtowing to train buffs around here is amusing to say the least (it took, what, a decade of lobbying just to get a pilot project on the tracks?), considering that the powers-that-be have spent the last four decades kicking them and kowtowing instead to the bus lobby and their busways. Now the BRT disease has spread to the north bank of the Ottawa at a time when finally the disease was showing signs of abating here on the south bank.

[Acajack]

All of these ideas for linking Gatineau and Ottawa by passenger are very interesting.

That said, I fail to see why Gatineau should put all its eggs in the basket of a hypothetical rail link across the river when Ottawa itself can’t get its act together to bring rail to its own downtown. Contrary to people in Gatineau, people in Barrhaven and Orleans pay taxes to the City of Ottawa and the Province of Ontario and even they don’t have rail service to downtown Ottawa.

There’s only so much money to go around, and it would be unwise for Gatineau to invest scarce dollars in a pie-in-the-sky rail proposal that may end up at a dead-end at the Ottawa River.

The Rapibus plan, which can eventually be adapted for rail (the stations for example will all be in place as will the park and ride lots) is the right plan right now for Gatineau. The city’s urban form at the moment is where Ottawa’s was when they built the Transitway: dispersed, sprawling and lacking cohesiveness.

It is true that the Rapibus follows the same corridor as rail for part of the way, but the difference is that Rapibus will certainly go to downtown Hull and Ottawa whereas rail likely would not. Yes, there is the issue of STO buses on Wellington and Rideau that is a big problem. In the end, I suppose that cooler heads will prevail on this and that people in Ottawa will see that hundreds of buses downtown are still better than thousands of cars. A solution will be found eventually.

Also, the Transitway experience in Ottawa shows that BRT can lead to transit-oriented development, as we can see it all along the Transitway. These buses-only corridors are now ripe for conversion to rail, and I actually I don’t really understand why it’s not happening.

For this Ottawa rail buffs are rightfully frustrated. But please don’t impose a made-in-Ottawa solution on Gatineau. It just won’t fit. Not now.

[Aylmer]

Ultra light rail (ULR) is the solution to Ottawa's and Gatineau's problems !!!
2M$/km... hybrid, without overhead wires... small trams are cheap so instead of:
1 train = 400 pass
1 train per 20 min

You have:

1 train = 100 pass
1 train per 5 min

Simple!!!!!

[the capital urbanite]

...wonder how these things function in our climate and how noisy they are?

It would certainly be something that the NCC could look into for their proposed loop around confederation blvd (at that price it could be done for under $30M!)

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

That is a very good idea!

[Acajack]

ULR might be interesting for the downtown loop but on a broader regional level it’s unlikely to happen.

On the Gatineau side, for example, the STO has already examined (and ruled out) every single rail-based option that is out there in fact-finding missions across Europe and North America. In selecting the Rapibus model, they’ve even studied bus-based transit further afield in places like Curitiba, Brazil.

And on the Ottawa side, I still don’t see how the city can in any way get out of eventually building a downtown transit tunnel of some kind. They’re just postponing the inevitable.

[Cre47]

The Green Party of Quebec wants the Rapibus to be extended to Ottawa, I guess via the Prince of Wales Bridge. Article below is in French though.

http://www.info07.com/article-156879...t-Rapibus.html