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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2011, 6:07 PM
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Indeed, I only read the title when I composed that post. My mistake. The original poster seems to get where I am coming from however. He choice of school is an enlightened one.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 12:00 PM
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I'm deep into classical and it's what I want to do mostly, but I still respect and like a good bit of modern work as well.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 5:02 PM
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ok. this probably applies to all programs, not just architecture, but in school generally one of the most important things is teamwork. students will sometimes be forced to work on long, complicated projects with other students that suck up their social life, that have nothing to do with their actual interests, and which have zero real-life payoff other than being graded. these students will (or should) prove to professors that they're serious students; even if these students just take, from the experience, the knowledge that there are certain other students they just won't be able to work with in real life.

other students who embark on long complicated projects that are only within their interests and no one else's probably just shouldn't be in school, because it will show that they are not interested in the real-life, ground floor, mechanics of architecture.

And that is all I have to say. No, I am not in architecture school. I am a magazine writer who went to college and sometimes writes about architecture for magazines. I guess I generally work better with other magazine writers than with architects.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Discipulus View Post
I'm deep into classical and it's what I want to do mostly, but I still respect and like a good bit of modern work as well.
I understand where you are coming from because when I was younger I was only really impressed with architecture before 1930 basically. I felt things that were being built today were not of the same quality and had little interest in modern architecture. Though I will say after what I have learned, there is more to architecture than classical and modern, and there are a number of architects out there that are doing amazing work that focuses on joints, materials, settings, and such that have really sparked some serious interests in me. So definitely keep an open mind when going into the program and be prepared to explain your reasoning for everything you design (and never say cause it looks cool or cause that is the way it has been done.) If you put arches on a building, you better be ready to explain the purpose of it and how it connects to your space.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2011, 10:01 PM
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Thanks guys; I do find that the more I really look into it the more I like modern. And in reality I'll most likely end up working on quite a few modern works, which is fine. I mean, a lot of modernist work is based around the same theories that classical work is/was. Look at Mondrian; I used to hate his work, until I learned about it. I'm also a big fan of not having anything that doesn't fit or isn't there for a specific reason, as with your arch example. If it doesn't say something, find something it can say without forcing it, or get it out. Provided you have the opportunity of course I don't hate everything that came before 1930, but I suppose I used to. I'm quite the fan of a lot of Pei's work and things coming out of Gensler (had an interview there for Cornell). That said, there are some things coming from both that I absolutely hate, and other things from classical architects that I think are horrid as well.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2011, 12:40 AM
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Architecture school is going to lead you to discover numerous architects you've never heard of (current and historical).

But don't be surprised when (particularly during the first two years), you find yourself talking more about painters, photographers, and poets. It seems an odd (and often frustrating) dialogue, but an important one in re-training your mind to be able to see the connections between light, space, and the tools with which you draw.

Also don't be surprised that other than your 20th Century History course, you have very very few discussions about skyscrapers (although it obviously does come up in more urban design oriented projects).
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2011, 1:56 AM
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Yeah, makes good sense I think. I esp. agree with Goethe's statement "Architecture is frozen music."

I would've expected a bit more than that, but not a real focus. I need it though; I generally don't like skyscrapers and think they're ugly. Which means, of course, that I need to challenge myself to design one.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2011, 10:06 PM
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One of the most important things you should be doing is making sure that going to school at a university like Notre Dame is a good idea for you, and the most important way of doing that isn't just learning what you can from Notre Dame, it's about talking to your friends and family.

I guess that this is something I know because it's something I made the mistake of not doing, once, when I was applying to graduate school for something else, photography. I'm a magazine writer, but I've worked in the photo field for about six years now. At the time, when I decided to apply to school for photography, it seemed like a no-brainer, because it was a subject I'd learned a lot about--though I'm hardly an expert--and had been working with so long that I'd come to really love it, and had also hit a point where I wasn't advancing far enough to really take my photography to the next level.

And like I said I've been working in this field for so long that from the moment I decided to apply, I only had one school in mind, which was the same school most of the photographers I've worked with in New York have gone to. Because I've been in the field so long, it wasn't hard to get a few in-person tours of the school at the beginning; and it wasn't hard to get a first interview to discuss the application process.

Something that came as a surprise to me, though, which is something that I really should have stopped to consider, was that at this first interview where I'd expressed my desire to attend, I was stopped completely dead cold and told that the application process was one that was lengthy and complicated and which I absolutely had to excel and match on every single level before I would even be granted another interview. I wasn't surprised by that, per se; it was more the fact that these were also people I'd worked in the same field with for such a long time that I thought it would be evident to them as well whether or not I'd make a good match for the program. I should have stopped to consider this, I guess, because the fact is that they had known me long enough to know whether I'd make a good match, so if they didn't accept me immediately chances are we might not make a good fit at all.

The problem is that I did want to go to this school badly enough that I didn't stop to consider this before immediately throwing myself into everything I could find about the application process and, since the portfolio seemed the most important part, working nonstop on my portfolio. There were a lot of problems with this: one was that to improve my portfolio, seemingly the most important thing, I was trying all kinds of new techniques I wasn't familiar with, without any critical feedback as to whether or not they were working or how to improve them, other than by modeling them against other work on that university's website. Secondly, the list of specifications and the amount of information I seemed to have to know before getting into the program was so massive that it basically took up all my time, and I was working constantly under a state of exhaustion, because after this first interview I was told after nearly every voice message I left at the university that I wouldn't be able to get a second one until my application was completely prepared. And in the meantime, because I was working so hard on this application--it took about three months--I completely lost touch with my friends and family. I didn't seem to have the time to even talk to them about the fact that I was, in fact, working constantly on an application to photography school.

I had basically completed my application completely up until the point of deadline, when I got to go to a single group seminar; I'd been posting a lot of my work for the portfolio on my Flickr website and, since I know that people at that university have access to my site, I was hoping I'd at least get a general sense of whether or not I was closer to acceptance, but I didn't get that sense in real life at all.

And then after I'd spent all that time getting my application together, I got to the last part, which was getting reviews from my friends to submit with the electronic application.

And this, the last part, was kind of a telling moment. It was the first time I'd sat down or phoned and had long conversations with a lot of my good friends who know my work about my application to this program, and every single one of them refused to contribute a review on the electronic application. Because after I'd told them about the three months putting together the portfolio and application for review, they all said the same thing, which was: "If this was what the application process was like, it just means that this program is not a good match for you." Every single one of them agreed that if the university already knew me and my work, which they had for a very long time, then if we were a good match they would have given me a fast entry instead of making me go through a length application process. Every single one of my friends also expressed the concern that I'd put everything else in my life on hold for this one program, about the fact that I hadn't gotten any in-person meetings along the process, that if the program, knowing the work I was doing by the posts I was putting on Flickr, actually wanted me with them at any point they would have stopped me, and that, in short, me going to this photo school was a bad idea altogether and under no circumstances should I do it.

Even my family--particularly one member who has always actually expressed the most confidence in my decisions about things like grad school in real life, but who is the one I discuss things like this the least (and never really did have a conversation with about it), basically reached out after a conversation about something else and said, "I'm not really sure what you're planning, but I'm really worried about you and whatever it is, isn't a good idea."

And I kind of realized that was true.

Basically, in the final moments, after I'd put in all this work, I realized that this program and I were not the right fit after all. That if we were, after me working in the field for five years, I would have gotten a fast track entry after all. That the fact I didn't means that there's no way I should have spent all that time on the application process, and that in the end, me going to school for this wouldn't work out.

And it was a really tough moment, because at that point, I'd almost gotten addicted to the work I was doing. And I felt good in certain ways about the work that I'd been doing for an actual application, so it felt weird to realize that the purpose of it--enrolling at this specific university--wasn't a good long-term decision. It kind of took me back to when I'd first taken actual photography classes, a few years earlier (which was, in fact, at this university) and tried to put together a portfolio for review; at least one person said to me then, "you'll never really be a photographer," which, I guess, is why it took me so long to get up the actual confidence to submit an application. All of my friends told me then the same thing; what you hear from the university in real life is what matters, and if that's what you hear, that means you shouldn't be there.

I was just looking at my application now. It made me a little sad.

I guess that's what it made me think of. It's good that you're asking questions about something like this from other architects, but the most important thing is to talk to your friends and family; the way I talked to all of my closest friends about my application, who all told me the exact same thing, which is that it wasn't a good idea. It will be a hard thing to hear if they do tell you that, but in the end, your close friends and family are the ones who know you best, and when you really talk to them about it, will have the best advice.

Plus, life is short anyways. At the end of working on my application, all of my friends and family told me they'd just really missed me for three months, and that if the application process was so complicated and difficult that they never ever saw me, then they wouldn't stop me from applying, but they wouldn't be happy about me going there. Which is why none of them would submit something like an electronic reference.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2011, 12:16 AM
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I appreciate that and I'm sorry that you had such an experience. But on my end, I've really had quite the opposite. I tell people that I'm going to go to architecture school and they're all "Oh yea that makes sense" or "of course you are" etc. I'd show what my schedule is going to look like for the next 5 years and everyone says "oh man I would hate that, but you'll love it" or "you're the only one I know that could put up with that" and the like. So, I do feel that not only do I think it's a good fit, but others think so as well.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2011, 1:32 AM
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Just a recommendation WHILE you are in architecture school:

While you can get very involved in your schoolwork you must take the time to update your resume and portfolio. Apply to summer internships no later than February. If you don't, all your classmates will get the positions before you, and you'll be stuck doing some semi-related architecture stuff instead of full force into the profession. Furthermore many architecture firms see summer interns as a long term investment. It's cheaper to train a summer college intern at $14/hour, than to train a salaried full time employee at $28/hour + benefits. There's a good chance they'll ask you back for good.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2011, 1:33 AM
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I'd planned to intern with a future teacher actually. Do architects seriously get 28/h?
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2011, 3:44 AM
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No, I don't think any student or recent graduate would get that much. That's almost 60,000. I think that's more like what you would get when you're older and experienced.

Location wise, bigger cities and the coasts pay more, and firm wise, bigger firms pay more and have better benefits. I think what you would really expect is more like 30,000, but it could be less depending on the firm and the economy.

Speaking of the economy, it's pretty horrible and it's not supposed to get back where it was for a while, while there are still a lot of new architecture students being made, and a lot of unemployed experienced architects looking for jobs. Even before the economy nosedived hiring wasn't very good at a lot of places. If you can I'd try to develop another interest so that if architecture doesn't work out right away you can have something else to do in the meantime. The job market has also been flooded by young people who didn't go to college, high school students, and unemployed older people, so fast food jobs are hard to get too, especially because they don't want to hire people who are going to leave in a few months, and because the people who have worked those places a lot are genuinely more qualified for them.

Who knows how much things could be different in 4 years though.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2011, 4:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Discipulus View Post
I'd planned to intern with a future teacher actually. Do architects seriously get 28/h?
Eventually they can depending on the firm and city. More than likely the starting pay is about 14-16/hr. Often times internships can be unpaid or fair low paid, but can lead to a good position. Also, work-study job in college or with firms that accept that is also a great way to go, something I am planning on doing when I go back to college for grad school. (hint with that, work-study jobs in the woodshop is always a good idea because not many people go for them and you have free reign of the shop just about whenever you want which will effect the kind of work you would do for studios, and nothing impresses a presentation more than lots of good woodworking.)
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2011, 1:29 PM
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Too true; the economy is not doing all so well. What much can I do with an architecture degree other than being an architect though? Hopefully it changes quickly enough; but if it's not much better within 5 years (5 years for me, not sure what everyone else's was) I think there are some bigger problems than me not having a wonderful job right away haha.



What do you mean by wood shop? Making wooden models? I figured architects, at least experienced ones as opposed to young ones and interns, would get paid a salary instead of wages but I guess that would depend on the firm.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2011, 7:41 PM
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I'm not sure but I think everything is mostly paid hourly, but I usually calculate how much that is in a year and say that, since that's more relateable (for me anyway).

A lot of architecture schools have wood shops. They're for model building (for example, maybe the studio is making a big wooden site model where everyone can plug their individual building models into). Things like furniture can be made at the wood shop too but I'm not too sure on the details, since I was never very involved in mine. But it basically has all the tools for more heavy duty model making stuff. Most of your model making would be done in the studio with exacto blades and maybe tiny saws.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2011, 1:40 AM
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Ah fair enough. Makes sense that they'd have them, I guess I've just never personally seen any "heavy duty" models that needed wood then. I toured Auburn's schol and they had a model of Chicago but that was all with cardboard. What kind of projects would use wood instead? (I know Notre Dame has a program for furniture design as well, so I know they'll have a shop)
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2011, 2:36 AM
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Ah fair enough. Makes sense that they'd have them, I guess I've just never personally seen any "heavy duty" models that needed wood then. I toured Auburn's schol and they had a model of Chicago but that was all with cardboard. What kind of projects would use wood instead? (I know Notre Dame has a program for furniture design as well, so I know they'll have a shop)
Any model could involve wood work, detail models of a joint or structural element. Seriously, it is an easy way to win points with a professor. I knew a guy who built these symbolic 4ft columns that represented fragments of his design.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2011, 11:45 AM
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Okay, thanks; didn't mean to question the advice, I'd just really never heard of it being done.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2011, 4:58 AM
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my suggestion would be to forget any preconceived notion about what kind of style you want to design....i can guarantee you that it will change....if not in school, then in the real world.....once you begin to understand what makes a good building, things like historic reference fade.

what is important is learning about proportion, rhythm, colour.....not what historic style you would like to copy

my suggestions for this summer?
read jane jacobs (The Death and Life of Great American Cities) and jan gehl (life between buildings)....practice photography....practice sketching with all kinds of different media....try watercolour....travel....go downtown in whatever city you live in, or better yet one that you dont and walk....consider which sidewalks are busy and which are not and why....look at how people use buildings, where they walk, where they stop...look closely at buildings, how the materials come together...watch their shadows, the way the wind or sun moves around them...watch how the rain falls from them.....watch how materials change in different light....how do they change at night, in appearance and function.

my last suggestion is that you take the time to consider carefully what it is that you like about old buildings and what it is that don't like about new ones....go experience examples of both, beyond driving past....walk around and through both....consider what it is like to be in each...what is the experience, beyond style....what emotions do each evoke from inside and out....be able to carefully articulate these experiences....understand why you feel what you do about different buildings and the way they interact with their surroundings....

heading into architecture school with preconceptions is dangerous...don't get caught up in style...understand what it is that attracts you to certain buildings.....these are the things that make good architecture...old or modern.

Last edited by trueviking; Jun 28, 2011 at 5:24 AM.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2011, 6:44 AM
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Great post.
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