The next GVRD rapid transit line?

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

under water, across the inlet

elevated to about 7th,

underground to the upper levels

Based on previous discussions, this might be extremely challenging. The Harbour is quite deep, especially crossing near the Quay, and lower Lonsdale is also very steep. I don't know if you would be able to go under the harbour and then emerge to an elevated line without a lot of extra costs and infrastructure. For that matter, I'm not even sure if SkyTrain can climb a grade like that in lower Lonsdale.

[ecbin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

No need for Richmond. Simply connecting Brentwood, BCIT Metrotown and the River District would net a fair amount of ridership.

Or connect Brentwood, Metrotown, and Oakridge and you've made a clunky circle line (requiring multiple changes to complete the circle)

Either ways though I wonder about the gradient on Willingdon between Moscrop and Grange. To connect the River District the gradient on Boundary would be pretty difficult to work around.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ecbin

Either ways though I wonder about the gradient on Willingdon between Moscrop and Grange. To connect the River District the gradient on Boundary would be pretty difficult to work around.

I suspect Metrotown will be tunneled no matter where the line heads next, so maybe keep going until Burke and then glide it into the slope.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I suspect Metrotown will be tunneled no matter where the line heads next, so maybe keep going until Burke and then glide it into the slope.

I think it's safe to say any new line in Metrotown would be tunnelled - the area isn't flat and they limit Skytrain to a 6% grade. You can check out this topographic map and click on it to see the elevation.

If they were going to have a line travel from for example Kootenay Loop to Brentwood and then to Metrotown... It's safe to say a line along Hastings would be tunnelled and would come above ground somewhere before Brentwood (Hastings and Willingdon is 80m vs Lougheed and Willingdon is 45m). After that Willingdon is a bowl (at Canada Way it's 22m) so it would stay above ground past BCIT and probably go back into a tunnel somewhere around Moscrop / Deer Lake Parkway (57m) and stay there until Central Blvd (132m).

Just from an elevation standpoint it would make more sense to turn to the west somewhere after that and continue on to the Canada Line - it's just a question of how far south is it worth it to take the line. Marine Dr / Way is a much lower elevation and is it worth it vs the (lack of) population density. It would make a lot more sense (and be easier) to take it along either 41st or 49th instead of Marine.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Just from an elevation standpoint it would make more sense to turn to the west somewhere after that and continue on to the Canada Line - it's just a question of how far south is it worth it to take the line. Marine Dr / Way is a much lower elevation and is it worth it vs the (lack of) population density. It would make a lot more sense (and be easier) to take it along either 41st or 49th instead of Marine.

You're not wrong, but Marine gives South Van three solid E-W transit corridors instead of two - and 41st can probably wait for their SkyTrain for a decade longer.

Might be worth keeping the tunnel and erupting at SE Marine... though the logistics of four separate tunnels and viaducts might sink it before it even starts.

[bloomtronzero]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

and 41st can probably wait for their SkyTrain for a decade longer.

I like the 41st idea, but I always had trouble with what happens at Joyce. Does a 41st ave line *terminate* at Joyce-Collingwood, or keep going? It'd be hard working an underground terminal station at Joyce Station, no? And if it goes past Joyce Station, where to? Up Boundary? It just seems awkward.

I started thinking lately 49th might be better. I know 49th isn't as dense as 41st, but that could change. A 49th line could go east all the way to Metrotown, and connect to a possible north-south Willingdon line.

[ecbin]

Originally Posted by bloomtronzero

I like the 41st idea, but I always had trouble with what happens at Joyce. Does a 41st ave line *terminate* at Joyce-Collingwood, or keep going? It'd be hard working an underground terminal station at Joyce Station, no? And if it goes past Joyce Station, where to? Up Boundary? It just seems awkward.

I started thinking lately 49th might be better. I know 49th isn't as dense as 41st, but that could change. A 49th line could go east all the way to Metrotown, and connect to a possible north-south Willingdon line.

I think the options would look like:

1. Follow the current R4 route and terminate at Joyce.
2. Follow the current R4 route and extend to BCIT and up to Brentwood (and up to Hastings/Kootenay Loop)
3. Do not go to Joyce and cut across Central Park to Metrotown and then up to Brentwood/Kootenay Loop)

Assuming someday that Metrotown and Brentwood will get connected I figure #3 would make the most sense but it's a bit of awkward transition geographically. Maybe you put a station at Kingsway/Tyne or at Kingsway/Boundary (this would actually work well). I don't know how many people who take the R4 to Joyce actually stay at Joyce - my anecdotal is that it's not a lot, most are going elsewhere (downtown or towards Burnaby/Surrey) so maybe it's not a big deal if it doesn't stop at Joyce (not sure they can get the land underground anyways for it).

Unless there's some dramatic change in density along 49th and a hub that gets built out (around Langara) I don't see how they could justify a line on 49th. Connecting Oakridge, Metrotown, and Brentwood seems like a good way to move a lot of folks.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by ecbin

I think the options would look like:

1. Follow the current R4 route and terminate at Joyce.
2. Follow the current R4 route and extend to BCIT and up to Brentwood (and up to Hastings/Kootenay Loop)
3. Do not go to Joyce and cut across Central Park to Metrotown and then up to Brentwood/Kootenay Loop)

Assuming someday that Metrotown and Brentwood will get connected I figure #3 would make the most sense but it's a bit of awkward transition geographically. Maybe you put a station at Kingsway/Tyne or at Kingsway/Boundary (this would actually work well). I don't know how many people who take the R4 to Joyce actually stay at Joyce - my anecdotal is that it's not a lot, most are going elsewhere (downtown or towards Burnaby/Surrey) so maybe it's not a big deal if it doesn't stop at Joyce (not sure they can get the land underground anyways for it).

Unless there's some dramatic change in density along 49th and a hub that gets built out (around Langara) I don't see how they could justify a line on 49th. Connecting Oakridge, Metrotown, and Brentwood seems like a good way to move a lot of folks.

Any sort of rapid transit line along 41st or 49th needs a depot or a connection to the expo line somewhere around Metrotown or Patterson to access the Edmonds OMC. I don't see where you can build one in this corridor, except maybe UBC south campus. Any connection to the Expo line would have to be above grade, so the metrotown portion can't be completely underground.

Option 3 seems like the best to me - underground along 41st, then follow kingsway with a tunnel portal parallel to kingsway north of swangard stadium, then continuing east parallel to the expo line to a new station at Metrotown parallel to the existing station. Switches to connect to the expo line could be east or west of the station. This would make metrotown the interchange station for expo - 41st transfers, and also allow transfers between a 41st line and a N-S willingdon line (which would have an underground station). The tunnel portal at swangard would become a station serving boundary road, splitting the distance between patternson and joyce on the expo line.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Based on previous discussions, this might be extremely challenging. The Harbour is quite deep, especially crossing near the Quay, and lower Lonsdale is also very steep. I don't know if you would be able to go under the harbour and then emerge to an elevated line without a lot of extra costs and infrastructure. For that matter, I'm not even sure if SkyTrain can climb a grade like that in lower Lonsdale.

Yeah a streetcar actually might make more sense. But then again dumping more buses is probably the best solution for the next 20-30 years.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by bloomtronzero

I like the 41st idea, but I always had trouble with what happens at Joyce. Does a 41st ave line *terminate* at Joyce-Collingwood, or keep going? It'd be hard working an underground terminal station at Joyce Station, no? And if it goes past Joyce Station, where to? Up Boundary? It just seems awkward.

I started thinking lately 49th might be better. I know 49th isn't as dense as 41st, but that could change. A 49th line could go east all the way to Metrotown, and connect to a possible north-south Willingdon line.

I'd be happy if they just widened 49th to 6 lanes. My mum still lives in the Killarney area, and every time I go out there 49th is crawling along.

[rpvan]

Originally Posted by bloomtronzero

I like the 41st idea, but I always had trouble with what happens at Joyce. Does a 41st ave line *terminate* at Joyce-Collingwood, or keep going? It'd be hard working an underground terminal station at Joyce Station, no? And if it goes past Joyce Station, where to? Up Boundary? It just seems awkward.

I started thinking lately 49th might be better. I know 49th isn't as dense as 41st, but that could change. A 49th line could go east all the way to Metrotown, and connect to a possible north-south Willingdon line.

Agree re. 49th.

Isn't the 49 the second busiest bus route after the 99? That's quite the feat, especially considering the fact that it currently isn't the fastest route or has the same level of service as the R4. When putting that into consideration I feel like it would make more sense than a 41st or Marine Dr route.

[Migrant_Coconut]

It's a tossup between the 41 (now the R4), the 20 and the 49. We can probably all agree that any SkyTrain that gets Metrotown, Oakridge, Kerrisdale and UBC will see maximum ridership.

[ninjakafi_81]

All that's being discussed on here reminds me of what I had on my transit fantasy map.

The Red Line goes along 41st Avenue from UBC to Joyce Station, pretty much mimicking the current R4. From there I sent it across Boundary Road to Burnaby Hospital and down to Willingdon Avenue to connect with BCIT. It then goes up Willingdon Avenue to Hastings Street where it would terminate at around Kootenay Loop / PNE during off peak hours. During peak hours trains would continue down Hastings Street to a Downtown.

The green line is the new North Shore Line I envisioned. Instead of what is currently planned by the government, I decided to just add all the concepts together to create a loop line. This way you have a new E/W line on the North Shore and along Hastings Street in Vancouver. During peak hours, Red Line trains would be doing through service along this line. Because of this, the new station in Downtown would be built with 3 platforms. 1 WB platform and 2 EB platforms sharing an Island platform.

Lastly the Purple Line is to provide a relief to the Expo Line when the time comes. Starting from Waterfront Station it'll go down Main Street then shoot down Kingsway to where it'll terminate in the South Gate area.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

so is this thread just a second Transit Fantasy thread?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

so is this thread just a second Transit Fantasy thread?

...only for rail transit - bus route fantasy planning still need to go over to that thread.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by ninjakafi_81

All that's being discussed on here reminds me of what I had on my transit fantasy map.

The Red Line goes along 41st Avenue from UBC to Joyce Station, pretty much mimicking the current R4. From there I sent it across Boundary Road to Burnaby Hospital and down to Willingdon Avenue to connect with BCIT. It then goes up Willingdon Avenue to Hastings Street where it would terminate at around Kootenay Loop / PNE during off peak hours. During peak hours trains would continue down Hastings Street to a Downtown.

The green line is the new North Shore Line I envisioned. Instead of what is currently planned by the government, I decided to just add all the concepts together to create a loop line. This way you have a new E/W line on the North Shore and along Hastings Street in Vancouver. During peak hours, Red Line trains would be doing through service along this line. Because of this, the new station in Downtown would be built with 3 platforms. 1 WB platform and 2 EB platforms sharing an Island platform.

Lastly the Purple Line is to provide a relief to the Expo Line when the time comes. Starting from Waterfront Station it'll go down Main Street then shoot down Kingsway to where it'll terminate in the South Gate area.

I like your idea; it's really comprehensive, especially if combined to what we have now. A question, though; how much will be above ground, vice versa underground (I prefer underground, but ($ )

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

so is this thread just a second Transit Fantasy thread?

There are separate threads for the Broadway and Langley extensions, so yes, this thread is for the next potential line and whether that is UBC, North Shore, Hastings, Willingdon, or something else is anyone's guess, hence the poll.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by ninjakafi_81

All that's being discussed on here reminds me of what I had on my transit fantasy map.

The Red Line goes along 41st Avenue from UBC to Joyce Station, pretty much mimicking the current R4. From there I sent it across Boundary Road to Burnaby Hospital and down to Willingdon Avenue to connect with BCIT. It then goes up Willingdon Avenue to Hastings Street where it would terminate at around Kootenay Loop / PNE during off peak hours. During peak hours trains would continue down Hastings Street to a Downtown.

The green line is the new North Shore Line I envisioned. Instead of what is currently planned by the government, I decided to just add all the concepts together to create a loop line. This way you have a new E/W line on the North Shore and along Hastings Street in Vancouver. During peak hours, Red Line trains would be doing through service along this line. Because of this, the new station in Downtown would be built with 3 platforms. 1 WB platform and 2 EB platforms sharing an Island platform.

Lastly the Purple Line is to provide a relief to the Expo Line when the time comes. Starting from Waterfront Station it'll go down Main Street then shoot down Kingsway to where it'll terminate in the South Gate area.

For the Orange Line, it does not need to go past Cambie. There will be already a line going to UBC from the Millennium line. UBC does not need two, and nor does the wealthy, low-density Kerrisdale/Dunbar Southlands (but if it did it wouldn't be the end of the world, just kinda pointless). The part I have the biggest problem with is why does the line go through Joyce and not Metrotown. Metrotown is after all the biggest population centre in the area, not Joyce. Plus, the line would go much more smoothly if it went through Metrotown and then down Willingdon, rather than what you showed where it tears through an entire neighborhood around Burnaby Hospital. It's just very awkward.

Your purple line is good in the sense that it aims to relieve the Expo, but I think it should just be commuter rail that runs parallel to the Expo until it reaches the Fraser, where it continues to Chilliwack.

For the Green Line, its route along the North Van is sensible, but I don't think it makes any sense that it skips West Van for Stanley Park. IMO that line should run from Ambleside to Lonsdale to the 2nd narrows and connect with that Orange Line, making a reverse-C shaped circumferential line. A big theme with your map is putting SkyTrain in forests, like at Stanley Park or at the Endowment Lands. Forests don't need skytrains. I get it makes more sense to have a line connecting Lonsdale to Downtown, so I would suggest just extending the Canada Line to Lonsdale if possible. This would make the connection from NV to Downtown faster than if it went around Stanley Park, even with an extra transfer.



*Note that the switch from 49 to 41 would be underground and could happen at any point along their stretches in Vancouver, it's just the most efficient way to connect Oakridge to Metrotown*

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

For the Orange Line, it does not need to go past Cambie. There will be already a line going to UBC from the Millennium line.

There are a lot of potential customers for UBC traffic, both students and future residential, plus the "Orange Line" would take a significant load off of the Canada Line north of 41st and the Millennium Line in both directions.

Originally Posted by BaddieB

For the Green Line, its route along the North Van is sensible, but I don't think it makes any sense that it skips West Van for Stanley Park. IMO that line should run from Ambleside to Lonsdale to the 2nd narrows and connect with that Orange Line, making a reverse-C shaped circumferential line.

Ambleside would be useful, but West Vancouver rejected having the RapidBus extend past Park Royal. SkyTrain might be even harder to get approved. The "Green Line" does stop at Park Royal, though, which is a major exchange in West Vancouver. One advantage to the circle route is that it simplifies travel to and from the North Shore. Park Royal to downtown, for example, is much faster via First Narrows than via Second.

Originally Posted by BaddieB

I get it makes more sense to have a line connecting Lonsdale to Downtown, so I would suggest just extending the Canada Line to Lonsdale if possible. This would make the connection from NV to Downtown faster than if it went around Stanley Park, even with an extra transfer.

The depth of the harbour complicates a direct extension of the Canada Line, unfortunately. As I recall, some of the deepest parts are in that line between Lonsdale Quay and Waterfront Station. Plus, the distance is short enough that the time savings over the SeaBus are relatively insignificant when compared with the cost involved in extending the line.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

There are separate threads for the Broadway and Langley extensions, so yes, this thread is for the next potential line and whether that is UBC, North Shore, Hastings, Willingdon, or something else is anyone's guess, hence the poll.

TransLink has been turning B Line / RapidBus routes into Skytrain lines. UBC is a given and Hastings has got to be somewhere near the front of the line after that. Willingdon makes sense connecting different lines together but I suspect it's not on their minds right now.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Ambleside would be useful, but West Vancouver rejected having the RapidBus extend past Park Royal. SkyTrain might be even harder to get approved. The "Green Line" does stop at Park Royal, though, which is a major exchange in West Vancouver. One advantage to the circle route is that it simplifies travel to and from the North Shore. Park Royal to downtown, for example, is much faster via First Narrows than via Second.


The depth of the harbour complicates a direct extension of the Canada Line, unfortunately. As I recall, some of the deepest parts are in that line between Lonsdale Quay and Waterfront Station. Plus, the distance is short enough that the time savings over the SeaBus are relatively insignificant when compared with the cost involved in extending the line.

Yeah West Van has been very anti-transit so I doubt they'll get anything beyond Park Royal for quite awhile. North Van is more interested but between the cost to get it across the water vs the population I'd say TransLink is for now only giving lip service to them getting a line. If they could extend the Canada Line from Waterfront ... but we've had that conversation before.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned South of Fraser at all. Surrey is finally getting the Expo Line extended down Fraser Hwy and the way their population has been booming I can see another line happening somewhere SoF before I can see one to the North Shore.