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  #101  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 1:22 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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RTH, the "good thing we have" that I was referring to is Gore Park and King St. I don't pin the suffering retail situation downtown on either of them, in fact I'd go as far as to say they are both keeping things together downtown. Stinson said it himself: King St. is an awesome street in it's current state, as is Gore Park. It just needs some development around it to bring it out. You underestimate the projects that I listed. I think they'll have more of a positive impact on the downtown than any of us thought they would. Time will tell.

The only change to Gore Park that I really think is needed currently is getting the buses out of there. Once that is done it will be much quieter and enjoyable. Some more emphasis can be put on parking in the South leg, but for the most part it will be considered a "shared use" street. Once the buses are out the cobblestone needs to be re-laid, post haste. The buses have absolutely chewed up the old stones, they're all popping up and chipped up especially around Hughson.

yup, I agree with you here. the new transit terminal can't get built soon enough IMO.
I certainly don't underestimate the impact of those projects...it's been a long time coming and fully expect them to have a great effect on downtown.
I just think that the north leg of King serves no real purpose considering the overbuilt road infrastructure right nearby. As the store owners on that part of king have said, cars are just flying through. there's nowhere to stop. I mean, I guess we could have 1 lane for curb parking somewhere on the north leg, but being Hamilton, you'd still have idiots roaring through here killing people. I'd prefer shared space with no through traffic allowed. like the european examples shown earlier. People will most certainly park on nearby streets and walk over to see whats happening. A shared space means the Gore area can be a constant 'festival'. True urban living with no worries about vehicle traffic.
this is the way of the future in dense, urban neighbourhoods...heck, I've even thought lately that I'd like to see Locke St cobblestoned and made into a shared space street, but it's probably too narrow. Westdale village could do it easily with all the space in between the rows of shops on either side of King.
York in front of the market most certainly should have a couple narrow traffic lanes and be shared space....unfortunately, I'm way ahead of myself.
this is the Hammer. Let's start right downtown and go from there.
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  #102  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 1:27 PM
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Those are all good points, I'm still just very weary about completely closing off King to traffic. No matter how I approach it, it keeps seeming much too dramatic. Almost on par with doing the same to Yonge, King, Queen or Bloor St. in Toronto (yah I know those are much different situations, I'm just trying to compare to "important" streets in Toronto)
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  #103  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 1:31 PM
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Option 2 will be the best in the short term. If the integration of cars and pedestrians becomes a complete road block to traffic Option 1 can be phased in. I think that either of these proposals will be a monumental step forward for Hamilton. I just think that option 2 will be more of the sure thing in the short term, and seems to be where the world is headed right now.
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  #104  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by matt602 View Post
Those are all good points, I'm still just very weary about completely closing off King to traffic. No matter how I approach it, it keeps seeming much too dramatic. Almost on par with doing the same to Yonge, King, Queen or Bloor St. in Toronto (yah I know those are much different situations, I'm just trying to compare to "important" streets in Toronto)
Good point. Queen West in Toronto runs SUPER slow... and look how successful the street is. But you can't shut it off to visitors!

When I was a young teen, driving with friends through Toronto for my first time, we drove along Queen West... stupid choice for kids that don't know a city. However, we were able to access the street by car and experience what the street had to offer! We were going slow enough to see the big Le Chateau (Chateauworks at that time), and the walk-thru McDonalds, and all the neat shops with awesome clothes displayed, etc.
If we had of drivin along Richmond or whatever, we would never have stopped/shopped, and would most likely not understand what Queen West had to offer for another couple of years.

Let visitors experience King by driving (slowly) along it, seeing what it has to offer, then when they're comfortable enough, they'll get out and shop.
There's NO WAY they'll get out and shop if they're forced to drive along Wilson :s haha

And by 'visitors', I don't necessarily mean out-of-towners. I mean anyone who's driving thru downtown that don't on a regular basis!
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  #105  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 2:15 PM
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The thing that boggled my mind on my recent visit back to my childhood area in Toronto was Eglinton Ave. East. It's basically a 6 lane 2 way street through an otherwise quiet residential area. What boggles my mind? It's thriving. There's no abandoned buildings, it's all upscale condo's and grocery stores. Even though traffic zooms by at 60km/h and there's at least 5 different high frequency TTC routes that run along it.

I don't know why it thrives, I'm still trying to figure it out. I would assume the incredibly good transit service has something to do with it.

Thinking about it now, it's actually very similar to King St. E in downtown Hamilton. When Eglinton gets closer to Yonge (basically after Mt. Pleasant), it slims down to about 4 lanes (and only one lane in each direction right AT Yonge because of the street parking, turning lanes and transit priority). Just like King St. E through the village.
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  #106  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 7:14 PM
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^ Matt, I have to say you're exhibiting considerable wisdom on this issue. Getting the buses out is undoubtedly the first priority. Closing down King for any stretch to regular traffic would be, at present, grossly imprudent. Most of the arguments presented on here in favour of doing so have been rather feeble.

In particular I would point out that it is decidedly unhelpful to attempt to draw parallels (in terms of the success of car free zones) between cities which have traditionally been pedestrian dominated (e.g. London, Paris, etc.) and Hamilton, which has traditionally been car dominated.

I don't think the issue of completely pedestrianizing Gore and King St. should even be considered until the demand for it is palpable and irresistible (which clearly it is not at present). As a method of invigorating commerce, etc. I think it is doomed to fail given the present culture of the city.
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  #107  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 7:22 PM
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Closing down King for any stretch to regular traffic would be, at present, grossly imprudent.
How so?
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  #108  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 7:51 PM
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Firstly, there's nothing there to draw the sort of enormous pedestrian traffic which would be needed to spark the commericial recovery the city hopes for along the Gore.

There presently aren't enough people living around the Gore to fill the place on weekends or most evenings.

Complete pedestrianization will effectively shut down King St. to visitors (especially short term visitors) who may not be able or willing to navigate Hamilton's transit system.

The vast majority of shoppers even in the lower city still prefer to drive (even where the drive is only a short distance).

Car traffic, moving at a sane pace on a two-way street (I know King is not two-way yet) is a legitimate part of urban street life.

I also think considerable regard must be paid to the opinions of business people downtown, who thus far have shown almost unanimous opposition to complete pedestrianization. The development of the downtown as a place of economic opportunity and growth must undoubtedly take priority.

Etc. Etc.

That being said, I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of complete pedestrianization in principle. I simply happen to believe that the conditions necessary for its success are not even close to being present in Hamilton at this time.

At any rate, the burden of proof is unequivocally upon those advancing the argument for complete pedestrianization (they being the ones advocating major change). So far, in my opinion, very little has been offered in the way of substantive support for the position, and certainly nothing which cannot easily be confuted by countervailing arguments.
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  #109  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 8:13 PM
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Firstly, there's nothing there to draw the sort of enormous pedestrian traffic which would be needed to spark the commericial recovery the city hopes for along the Gore.

There presently aren't enough people living around the Gore to fill the place on weekends or most evenings.

Complete pedestrianization will effectively shut down King St. to visitors (especially short term visitors) who may not be able or willing to navigate Hamilton's transit system.

The vast majority of shoppers even in the lower city still prefer to drive (even where the drive is only a short distance).

Car traffic, moving at a sane pace on a two-way street (I know King is not two-way yet) is a legitimate part of urban street life.

I also think considerable regard must be paid to the opinions of business people downtown, who thus far have shown almost unanimous opposition to complete pedestrianization. The development of the downtown as a place of economic opportunity and growth must undoubtedly take priority.

Etc. Etc.

That being said, I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of complete pedestrianization in principle. I simply happen to believe that the conditions necessary for its success are not even close to being present in Hamilton at this time.

At any rate, the burden of proof is unequivocally upon those advancing the argument for complete pedestrianization (they being the ones advocating major change). So far, in my opinion, very little has been offered in the way of substantive support for the position, and certainly nothing which cannot easily be confuted by countervailing arguments.
I second all of this.

I'd also like to add that a potential completely pedestrianized public space will also include many undesirable characters. I'm not saying Hamilton is any worse than any other city, but it is a fact that you can, whithout much trouble, buy any drug you like in the vicinity of Gore Park and King between James and Hughson. Some of the dealers consider it their space, and they will be there if it is pedestrianized as well. (If you take a lot of pictures downtown like I do, you will stumble into this world on occasion, they really watch what's going on downtown). The larger the space is, the more difficult it will be to deal with and the more potential for certain areas of the public area to become no go zones for many people. The more eyes downtown the better, and if you take away traffic and the buses (which I do favour) you end up with a really big area that might seem very empty, and there are those who will take the opportunity to use that space for things it was not meant for.

Not trying to be alarmist, this is a potential problem, it might not be a problem at all, just something to think about. I think closing off the south leg of King and reducing King to two-lanes two-way with parking would be plenty.
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  #110  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2008, 9:18 PM
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RePinion, in response to your points, I have to disagree with your suggestion that there presently aren't enough people living around the Gore to fill the place on weekends or most evenings. I am not sure when you were last downtown, but I live in close proximity to the downtown core and pass through it on a daily basis, and visit it often on weekends. There is much more existing pedestrian traffic than you might think. In fact, the sidewalks along King are often filled with pedestrian traffic. And a lot of that is from people who live downtown. In 2001, nearly 64000 lived in the downtown area. Perhaps someone has a more current figure, but I believe this has been trending upward in the current decade, along with the median income of those living downtown.

You also state that complete pedestrianization will effectively shut down King St. to visitors (especially short term visitors) who may not be able or willing to navigate Hamilton's transit system. This would be true if King Street was the only road handling automobile traffic downtown, but we know this is not true. There are many alternate routes into the core running parallel to King Street, and all roads intersecting King will remain open (except possibly Hughson), so accessibility to downtown will not be impacted in any significant way. While the transit system is a great way to get downtown, driving to the core is not being removed from the equation at all, save for a two-block stretch. I am sure even the least adventurous visitor can navigate these two blocks easily.

You also say that the vast majority of shoppers even in the lower city still prefer to drive. Even if this is true, no one is stopping them from driving downtown. Shoppers in the lower city can still drive to their destination. Once they get there, there will be a stretch restricted to mainly pedestrian traffic, making the shopping experience safer and much more enjoyable. Again, we are talking about a two-block stretch easily accessible by intersecting roads and parallel routes. Geographically speaking, that is a walking distance equal to about half the length of Lime Ridge Mall's main shopping arcade, or about equal to the distance one normally has to walk from their parked car to the entrance of shops like Costco or Walmart.

Opposition by downtown businesses can be described as anything but universal. I would also suggest you try not to assume the opinions of the Downtown BIA as reflective of downtown business owners as a whole. I have had conversations with several downtown business owners who are not in agreement with the BIA's vision of the downtown core. Having said that, even the BIA has expressed support of pedestrianization of at least the southern leg of King, the portion currently used as a bus drop-off zone.

Out of curiosity, which businesses along the north side of King Street do you think would be adversley affected by restricting traffic between James and John? I would challenge anyone to name one business along this stretch that would suffer from restricted traffic along these two blocks. Seeing as there is no curbside parking along this stretch as it is, all current business traffic comes in by foot as it is.

By making this stretch more pedestrian friendly, you are enhancing the environment of the business' principle demographic: the pedestrian shopper. It will provide a quieter, cleaner and safer environment more integrated with the positive features of our current Gore Park. By widening the pedestrian walkway, you can also attract restaurants and cafes who are seeking out locations with large available outdoor spaces for patios. You also can provide a space condusive to offering special events to attract people downtown such as the summertime concerts, fairs and open-air markets, and an expansion to the successful Christmastime attraction and other holiday events.

I'm glad to hear you support the idea of complete pedestrianization in principle. I am certainly not in agreement with your belief that the conditions necessary for its success are not present in Hamilton at this time. On the contrary, I believe the timing is perfect. The conditions present in Hamilton today are almost identical to those in Halfax when they introduced pedestrian enhancements in their downtown. A decade later, those initiatives have had a significant positive impact on downtown Halifax, particularly along Market and Argyle Streets. The same can be said about Montreal and Quebec City where they have introduced pedestrian areas in thier cities.
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  #111  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 1:23 AM
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RePinion, in response to your points, I have to disagree with your suggestion that there presently aren't enough people living around the Gore to fill the place on weekends or most evenings. I am not sure when you were last downtown, but I live in close proximity to the downtown core and pass through it on a daily basis, and visit it often on weekends. There is much more existing pedestrian traffic than you might think. In fact, the sidewalks along King are often filled with pedestrian traffic. And a lot of that is from people who live downtown. In 2001, nearly 64000 lived in the downtown area. Perhaps someone has a more current figure, but I believe this has been trending upward in the current decade, along with the median income of those living downtown.

You also state that complete pedestrianization will effectively shut down King St. to visitors (especially short term visitors) who may not be able or willing to navigate Hamilton's transit system. This would be true if King Street was the only road handling automobile traffic downtown, but we know this is not true. There are many alternate routes into the core running parallel to King Street, and all roads intersecting King will remain open (except possibly Hughson), so accessibility to downtown will not be impacted in any significant way. While the transit system is a great way to get downtown, driving to the core is not being removed from the equation at all, save for a two-block stretch. I am sure even the least adventurous visitor can navigate these two blocks easily.

You also say that the vast majority of shoppers even in the lower city still prefer to drive. Even if this is true, no one is stopping them from driving downtown. Shoppers in the lower city can still drive to their destination. Once they get there, there will be a stretch restricted to mainly pedestrian traffic, making the shopping experience safer and much more enjoyable. Again, we are talking about a two-block stretch easily accessible by intersecting roads and parallel routes. Geographically speaking, that is a walking distance equal to about half the length of Lime Ridge Mall's main shopping arcade, or about equal to the distance one normally has to walk from their parked car to the entrance of shops like Costco or Walmart.

Opposition by downtown businesses can be described as anything but universal. I would also suggest you try not to assume the opinions of the Downtown BIA as reflective of downtown business owners as a whole. I have had conversations with several downtown business owners who are not in agreement with the BIA's vision of the downtown core. Having said that, even the BIA has expressed support of pedestrianization of at least the southern leg of King, the portion currently used as a bus drop-off zone.

Out of curiosity, which businesses along the north side of King Street do you think would be adversley affected by restricting traffic between James and John? I would challenge anyone to name one business along this stretch that would suffer from restricted traffic along these two blocks. Seeing as there is no curbside parking along this stretch as it is, all current business traffic comes in by foot as it is.

By making this stretch more pedestrian friendly, you are enhancing the environment of the business' principle demographic: the pedestrian shopper. It will provide a quieter, cleaner and safer environment more integrated with the positive features of our current Gore Park. By widening the pedestrian walkway, you can also attract restaurants and cafes who are seeking out locations with large available outdoor spaces for patios. You also can provide a space condusive to offering special events to attract people downtown such as the summertime concerts, fairs and open-air markets, and an expansion to the successful Christmastime attraction and other holiday events.

I'm glad to hear you support the idea of complete pedestrianization in principle. I am certainly not in agreement with your belief that the conditions necessary for its success are not present in Hamilton at this time. On the contrary, I believe the timing is perfect. The conditions present in Hamilton today are almost identical to those in Halfax when they introduced pedestrian enhancements in their downtown. A decade later, those initiatives have had a significant positive impact on downtown Halifax, particularly along Market and Argyle Streets. The same can be said about Montreal and Quebec City where they have introduced pedestrian areas in thier cities.
I certainly do support the pedestrianization of the south leg of King.

All of your points, I'm afraid, rely a little too much upon anecdotal observation to be genuinely compelling.

I can respond by offering a bit of anecdotal evidence of my own.

I work downtown ... and live in the lower city. I have lived in Toronto, London (UK), and for a short time in Paris and New York. All of these cities have pedestrian traffic of an absolutely incomparable scope to that of Hamilton. And yet, the idea of completely pedestrianizing a major thoroughfare and centre of business in any one of these cities would be virtually unimaginable. There are exceptions - Wall Street in New York and Paternoster Square in London, amongst a few others. But these exceptions exist, it must be said, more for reasons of security than they do for pedestrian friendliness. And they're not very popular spots outside of business hours. Other than that, successful pedestrian areas in major cities tend to be in areas which were always pedestrian dominated (e.g. Covent Garden Market in London). This is certainly true in Old Montreal and Quebec, where the narrow cobblestone streets have always been unfriendly to vehicle traffic anyway. And besides, these are tourist areas, not real business centres. I can't speak for Halifax, never having been there, but I know (from both first and second hand sources) that many of its important businesspeople and real estate developers consider the downtown to be in a very serious decline.

Even if 64,000 people live in the "downtown", 64,000 people do not live on the edge of Gore Park, or even in the very close vicinity. I simply do not accept that there is at present sufficient residential concentration in the area to justify the complete closure of King street to all traffic except transit (and possibly delivery).

As for visitors, I agree with others on here who have pointed out that shutting down King will force these visitors to drive down less desirable streets like Cannon or Main. It seems silly to come to Hamilton and not be able to drive down its primary thoroughfare. Imagine going to New York and finding that a big chunk of Fifth Avenue had been shut down for pedestrians only? It seems ridiculous. Much of our finest architecture is on this stretch of King. To turn it into a pedestrian mall seems to rob it of real life and to disconnect it from the city proper.

I also reject intuitively the proposition that total pedestrianization will cause little in the way of inconvenience. There is such a thing as natural traffic flow and to stick an island of pedestrians in the middle of it will surely disrupt things seriously. Let us not pretend that we can build a city with complete disregard for automobiles. I'm all for traffic calming and even shared usage as between pedestrians and motor vehicles, but cars should be able to reach their destination in as straightforward a path as possible (although not necessarily as quickly as possible).

As for the businesses along the north side of King, I would be happy to see most if not all of them wither and die (or simply move elsewhere). There is not a first rate retailer amongst them and their presence does injustice to the downtown. This stretch of King should be populated by top tier retailers, not junk shops, second hand CD stores and shitty fast food outlets. I simply don't think any top tier retailer would buy into the idea of making a major capital investment on a pedestrian only frontage. The perception of a busy street is very much important to location decisions made by such organizations.

I think it is only fair to allow that the BIA speaks for the majority of its members - or if not all of its members, then at least its most important and prominent ones. As with any representative body, there is an implicit endorsement of its policies and statements by its members short of hard evidence to the contrary. All of the businesspeople I've spoken to affirm that the idea of complete pedestrianization is laughable. Mind you, I'm not in the habit of speaking to any small businesspeople on a day to day basis, but rather lawyers, bankers, insurers, commercial real estate brokers, and so on. I think it is far more important not to alienate these people - who could quite easily move their operations to an office park in Stoney Creek or more likely Burlington - than to cater to the largely uneducated whims of small businesspeople who think their two-bit operation might somehow benefit from a pedestrianized King Street. I quite firmly believe that the business establishment in this city is strongly opposed to the complete pedestrianization of King. That is enough to settle the matter for me.

I'm all for making things pedestrian friendly and certainly even for prioritizing the needs of pedestrians over drivers. I just don't believe a compelling enough case can be made out for total pedestrianization at present.
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  #112  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 1:35 AM
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As for visitors, I agree with others on here who have pointed out that shutting down King will force these visitors to drive down less desirable streets like Cannon or Main. It seems silly to come to Hamilton and not be able to drive down its primary thoroughfare. Imagine going to New York and finding that a big chunk of Fifth Avenue had been shut down for pedestrians only? It seems ridiculous. Much of our finest architecture is on this stretch of King. To turn it into a pedestrian mall seems to rob it of real life and to disconnect it from the city proper.
This is probably the single most important reason for keeping traffic on King. You can drive down Main St. and not be too impressed with Hamilton. But every visitor from out of town I've taken down King St. knows that Hamilton is a real city.
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  #113  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 1:53 AM
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I think option one is really a revolutionary proposal. Option two is great, but I think it something to work towards. I love the exposure that option one gives to the retail. It allows someone with a Bentley or whatever to park close to retail if they desire. I really commend Hamilton for their efforts on presenting something of great vision for the downtown. I enjoy seeing people's passion on this subject.

I think within about 10 years the store fronts surrounding Gore Park will be the areas that support the city's highest end destination retail. This is where Gucci, Prada, Holt Renfew, Tiffany and Co. and the like will locate. I think the redesign for Gore Park could learn a lot from Yorkville Park in Toronto. It would be awesome if Hamilton placed a 100 tonne chunk of steel in it like Yorkville did with the boulder.
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  #114  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:06 AM
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I think within about 10 years the store fronts surrounding Gore Park will be the areas that support the city's highest end destination retail. This is where Gucci, Prada, Holt Renfew, Tiffany and Co. and the like will locate. I think the redesign for Gore Park could learn a lot from Yorkville Park in Toronto. It would be awesome if Hamilton placed a 100 tonne chunk of steel in it like Yorkville did with the boulder.
One might be inclined to laugh at the suggestion that such top-end retailers will ever locate to Hamilton. But then look at Manchester. That city was once economically much worse-off than Hamilton and considered the armpit of England. Its was abandoned by retail, full of dreary pubs, prostitutes and drug dealers. Through progressive civic leadership and major cooperation from parliament (not to mention a massive IRA bomb) the city virtually reinvented itself and now it does indeed host shops like Chanel, Gucci, Selfridges, etc. Hamilton can achieve this, in due course.
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  #115  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:13 AM
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I was just thinking of the French Quarter in New Orleans. The streets there are dominated by pedestrians, cars are slowed to a crawl on many streets, but not disallowed. Similar to Kensington in Toronto, where there are enough pedestrians that cars play second fiddle, even though there is no law specifically giving pedestrians priority. We should aspire to have that kind of pedestrian activity on King St in Hamilton. But in the meantime, instead of banning cars outright, simply work towards creating an environment where pedestrians naturally assume priority over cars. You can't force it, it has to happen naturally. But things can be nudged in that direction.
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  #116  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:15 AM
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^ With the IRA bombing in 1996 they instead of making a replica of the previous building Manchester bulit the Urbis Centre.....



If we can't renovate the Lister Block I rather see something like this happen instead of a replica.
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  #117  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:18 AM
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^ Exactly! That is precisely what I would hope for.

Kensington is a great local example of an area with the sort of high volume pedestrian traffic necessary to justify complete closure to traffic - and yet the city, wisely, has decided against pedestrianization.

Put things in place (two-way traffic on King's north leg, south leg closed to vehicles, LRT, public washrooms in Gore, etc.) and then let the neighbourhood decide its own dynamic.

Hamilton has tried to overengineer things far too often in the past. I think with the proposal to completely pedestrianize King we're on the verge of doing it again.
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  #118  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:35 AM
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^ Exactly! That is precisely what I would hope for.

Kensington is a great local example of an area with the sort of high volume pedestrian traffic necessary to justify complete closure to traffic - and yet the city, wisely, has decided against pedestrianization.

Put things in place (two-way traffic on King's north leg, south leg closed to vehicles, LRT, public washrooms in Gore, etc.) and then let the neighbourhood decide its own dynamic.

Hamilton has tried to overengineer things far too often in the past. I think with the proposal to completely pedestrianize King we're on the verge of doing it again.
Kensington Market is made up of side streets that have always been side streets. As you yourself have mentioned, King Street is effectively Hamilton's main street, so the comparison is really not valid. If you want to compare something to Kensington Market and/or nominate it for pedestrianization, then something like King William probably makes much more sense.
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  #119  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:45 AM
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To add to my earlier posts, here are a few more examples of successful pedestrian conversions in other Candaian cities:
  • Steven Avenue (8th Street), Calgary, Alberta (doesn't get much more car-centric than there, but their ped-only stretch of a section of a downtown through route enjoys much success).
  • Prince Arthur Street, Montreal
  • Granville Mall (three blocks of downtown Halifax's Granville Street). Halifax in particular has achieved great success in revitalizing their downtown via pedestrian projects like this and Argyle Avenue.
  • Sparks Street in Ottawa could be included in this list as well. Some may describe it as a failure, but the truth be told it has had a moderately successful run as a pedestrian zone. After all it has been pedestrian-only for almost fifty years now and now has residential condominiums addied to the neighbourhood mix.
  • Even our big Ontario rival Toronto has introduced pedestrian areas. Distillery District, albeit off the beaten path, is remarkably successful as ped-only. Queen's Quay is in transition to pedestrianization, and Kensington Market has had successful car-free Sundays for the past few years.

I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea. The two-block stretch will still accomodate public transit and taxis. Neighbouring streets can handle the traffic. Diverting traffic between John and James via King William, Rebecca and/or Jackson is not going to invonvenience visitors (or expose them to the 'ugly underbelly' of Cannon - God forbid!). The two-way traffic conversion study that was posted on the thread on that topic made it quite clear that these and other downtown streets are far from capacity and could handle traffic diversion from such a small stretch.

Frankly, the downtown core has languished for some time while everyone just watches wringing their hands. Why not try something new that has been proven successful in several comparable cities? As RePinion points out, there isn't a stellar line of businesses being put at risk by this proposal. And, should it not work out, the closure can easily be reversed at minimal cost.

I really don't understand how so many can groan about how downtown doesn't work, but when others want to try something new, a proven concept successfully implemented in other cities, the old-style 'don't change anything' Hamilton attitude creeps up. We heard naysayers say how businesses on John and James would be doomed once those streets were converted to two-way (when the exact opposite has occurred), and the naysayers moaned that Pier 8/Discovery Centre/HMCS Haida would be a complete waste of money (look how much they have done for the city). Maybe it's time we stopped listening so much to the naysayers and started returning some positive, proactive energy back downtown.
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Old Posted Mar 25, 2008, 2:52 AM
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RePinion RePinion is offline
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Clearly you miss my point.

My suggestion was that an area like Kensington could very well be amenable to pedestrianization - even though Toronto has (wisely, in my view) decided against it. The necessary implication is that an area like King, being a thoroughfare, would not be amenable to pedestrianization.

That being said, King is not quite just a thoroughfare. It is somewhat unique in that it contains the closest thing to a town square we have, as well as a south leg which does seem genuinely amenable to pedestrianization.

Agreed that King William might be a more suitable candidate for pedestrianization, but I wouldn't push for it anywhere in the city yet, save for the south leg of King.

There just isn't compelling evidence to show that pedestrianized areas consistently outperform shared use areas as a means of economic revitalization.
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