Building LeBreton Flats - Master Planning

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Tobi Nussbaum was interviewed on CBC's Ottawa Morning this morning, and he mentioned that there is a hidden second aquaduct on the site that they would investigate uncovering. Has anybody heard about this?

AUDIO: https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio...lebreton-flats

Never heard of a second aqueduct. Maybe it was always covered up. I looked at some old maps and I have not seen it anywhere.

There was the timber slide but it crossed through the Zibi site and through the islands.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Jumpin' Jehosaphat.

The NCC and popular opinion in Ottawa will never be satisfied until 100% of the city is public open green space.

A big chunk of the 40% is on landfill that would be extremely difficult to build on anyway. That large green space north of Bayview is a good compromise between those who want development and those who would want the entire Flats dedicated to parkland.

1928


1965


c. 2005


https://wasteheritageresearch.wordpr...st-centertown/

New Master Plan


https://globalnews.ca/news/6198620/n...t-master-plan/

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Never heard of a second aqueduct. Maybe it was always covered up. I looked at some old maps and I have not seen it anywhere.

There was the timber slide but it crossed through the Zibi site and through the islands.

Did they even say where that buried aqueduct is located?

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Tobi Nussbaum was interviewed on CBC's Ottawa Morning this morning, and he mentioned that there is a hidden second aquaduct on the site that they would investigate uncovering. Has anybody heard about this?

I had heard of this previously... I forget where though.

You can actually see a strip of land above the buried aqueduct where they haven't removed contaminated soil yet:



And you can see this second aqueduct in their plan, just north of the existing open-air aqueduct.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I had heard of this previously... I forget where though.

You can actually see a strip of land above the buried aqueduct where they haven't removed contaminated soil yet:

And you can see this second aqueduct in their plan, just north of the existing open-air aqueduct.

Good work! How the heck did the rest of us miss that?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Jumpin' Jehosaphat.

The NCC and popular opinion in Ottawa will never be satisfied until 100% of the city is public open green space.

According to the representatives I talked to last night, the city is treating the development as a private development so some land has to be ceded by the NCC to the city for parkland. This parkland is the eastern half of the western parkland/green space.

I think you are playing loose with the facts. Don't forget that a lot of people want public spaces but not necessarily green spaces in the urban core. There was a lot of support last night for the public spaces centred on the 2 aqueducts.

I was told that one aqueduct is for drinking water, which is contained in a pipe at the bottom of the southern aqueduct. The northern aqueduct is to supply water to power the pumps to pump the drinking water through the system. The northern aqueduct is apparently nearing collapse so it will be daylighted as part of the repairs. This is still subject to negotiation with the city. Don't get your hopes up for skating on the aqueducts as apparently there is too much current making it unsafe for skating.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Good work! How the heck did the rest of us miss that?

Its not really emphasized much in the consultation or online documents, but they talked about it quite a bit in the NCC presentation I watched. Its one of my favorite parts of the new plan. I hope they can actually uncover it as it still seems a bit up in the air.

[Harley613]

This plan looks alright now that I've had time to really look at it. It's not packed with WOW factor but it seems more realistic than the other plans and it has a good chance of getting built out. Now we just need to make sure Crapridge doesn't get another parcel and Roderick Lahey gets a permaban for designing any of the buildings.

[pattherat]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I had heard of this previously... I forget where though.

And you can see this second aqueduct in their plan, just north of the existing open-air aqueduct.

Gold star to multi! Thanks, didn’t spot that either...hope that is it! Interspersed water features like that would be very nice IMO.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We're currently experiencing a rental building boom and the condo market is picking up. We have a good dozen towers u/c within walking distance from the O-Train, totaling one or two thousand units. The Liberals are in power with a very stable minority and the Phoenix Pay System slowly stabilizing, so this is a good time to launch LeBreton. Some developers might be willing to cast aside nearby projects if it means getting a piece of LeBreton.

I would suggest we're experiencing more of a rental proposal boom (largely driven by big box developers looking for other business) rather than a rental building boom. Maybe the former will turn into the latter, but at the moment there are only a handful of projects actually under construction across the entire city, and many of the recent builds seem to be spending a lot on marketing (not a usually sign of a tight market). The peak of the baby boom echo is in their late 20s and probably won't be in their prime rental years for much longer.

The condo market has picked up a bit lately but even in a good year a successful condo project puts up a new building every few years. Remember the first phase of Lebreton condos (which took about a decade to put up one midrise and 3 low rise buildings) was mostly built during a strong condo market. At that rate, we could be looking at 30-40 years to build out the project, and who knows what will happen to demographics over that time as populations across most of the world shrink.

[CityTech]

We actually are in a building "boom" at least by Ottawa's traditional steady-as-she-goes pace. If you look at building permit data for the last few years, total number of apartment starts (including both rental & condo) has increased massively. In 2018, around 8400 units worth of permits for residential construction were issued, and just over half of them were for apartments (including both rental & condo), so around 4300 units worth of new mid-rise and high-rise.

In 2016, it was just 5019 units worth of permits, of which just 24.8% were apartments, so only around 1250 units.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...cord-1.5273106
https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/do..._report_en.pdf

So from 2016 to 2018 we went from 1250 apartment starts a year to 4300 apartment starts a year. That's a pretty massive jump. The number of new units coming online in 2020-2021 will be a lot higher than it was in 2018-2019.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I would suggest we're experiencing more of a rental proposal boom (largely driven by big box developers looking for other business) rather than a rental building boom. Maybe the former will turn into the latter, but at the moment there are only a handful of projects actually under construction across the entire city, and many of the recent builds seem to be spending a lot on marketing (not a usually sign of a tight market). The peak of the baby boom echo is in their late 20s and probably won't be in their prime rental years for much longer.

The condo market has picked up a bit lately but even in a good year a successful condo project puts up a new building every few years. Remember the first phase of Lebreton condos (which took about a decade to put up one midrise and 3 low rise buildings) was mostly built during a strong condo market. At that rate, we could be looking at 30-40 years to build out the project, and who knows what will happen to demographics over that time as populations across most of the world shrink.

The rental boom would mostly be driven by older people, not younger people.

Although I do think that in another 10 years or so as boomers start moving out of their empty-nester homes in droves, we could see the market oversaturated with older suburban homes, meaning the Gen Z'ers will have plenty of suburban housing to choose from, so we might really see a bloodbath in terms of downtown youth population.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I had heard of this previously... I forget where though.

You can actually see a strip of land above the buried aqueduct where they haven't removed contaminated soil yet:



And you can see this second aqueduct in their plan, just north of the existing open-air aqueduct.

Well done! Excellent observation. If you zoom in on the 1928 air photo you can see the entrance and exit of the aqueduct and that it is a buried channel that ran under the old rail yards and then under a street, the former Ottawa Street.

The following map link identifies the aqueduct under Ottawa Street. http://madgic.library.carleton.ca/de..._No%20Date.pdf

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I think you are playing loose with the facts.

No, I'm making fun of them.

Don't forget that a lot of people want public spaces but not necessarily green spaces in the urban core. There was a lot of support last night for the public spaces centred on the 2 aqueducts.

Yes, like I said in different words: the NCC and public opinion always have as their go-to, kneejerk position on anything to do with urban planning in Ottawa that the thing Ottawa is somehow lacking, and needs more of, to solve Problem (for any value of Problem) is more bloody green open public space.

Ottawa doesn't need more of that. Ottawa needs more urban fabric, stitched tightly together, not more windswept shadeless Nowheres which are what most of our pointless open public green spaces or public green open spaces or whatever, especially those under NCC control, are or quickly and inevitably become.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by CityTech

We actually are in a building "boom" at least by Ottawa's traditional steady-as-she-goes pace. If you look at building permit data for the last few years, total number of apartment starts (including both rental & condo) has increased massively. In 2018, around 8400 units worth of permits for residential construction were issued, and just over half of them were for apartments (including both rental & condo), so around 4300 units worth of new mid-rise and high-rise.

In 2016, it was just 5019 units worth of permits, of which just 24.8% were apartments, so only around 1250 units.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...cord-1.5273106
https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/do..._report_en.pdf

So from 2016 to 2018 we went from 1250 apartment starts a year to 4300 apartment starts a year. That's a pretty massive jump. The number of new units coming online in 2020-2021 will be a lot higher than it was in 2018-2019.

The challenge in trying to draw meaning from theses stats is that the city counts a whole bunch of things as "apartments," including apartments, condos, some townhouses, basement apartments, etc. It would be interesting to know what percentage of those are highrise rental buildings (the relevant stat for a Lebretton discussion) and how many of those actually used their 2018 building permit to put a shovel in the ground in 2019.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The rental boom would mostly be driven by older people, not younger people.

Although I do think that in another 10 years or so as boomers start moving out of their empty-nester homes in droves, we could see the market oversaturated with older suburban homes, meaning the Gen Z'ers will have plenty of suburban housing to choose from, so we might really see a bloodbath in terms of downtown youth population.

That is clearly a lifestyle the Lepine Apartments marketing department is trying to push, but I am not sure if actual boomers (at least those who can afford other options) are looking to move to high-rise rental apartments.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No, I'm making fun of them.



Yes, like I said in different words: the NCC and public opinion always have as their go-to, kneejerk position on anything to do with urban planning in Ottawa that the thing Ottawa is somehow lacking, and needs more of, to solve Problem (for any value of Problem) is more bloody green open public space.

Ottawa doesn't need more of that. Ottawa needs more urban fabric, stitched tightly together, not more windswept shadeless Nowheres which are what most of our pointless open public green spaces or public green open spaces or whatever, especially those under NCC control, are or quickly and inevitably become.

I think the problem is the City/NCC definition of greenspace is "lawn, with a few shrubs, and maybe a 14-pack of flags"

What central Ottawa lacks (and I think drives the public interest in more greenspace) is greenspace that actually supports a range of activities, beyond the Edwardian staples of promenading and picnicking.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think the problem is the City/NCC definition of greenspace is "lawn, with a few shrubs, and maybe a 14-pack of flags"

What central Ottawa lacks (and I think drives the public interest in more greenspace) is greenspace that actually supports a range of activities, beyond the Edwardian staples of promenading and picnicking.

This! This is so perfect.

[OTownandDown]

One would expect that the hill on the east end of the development is a giant pile of super-toxic sludge. The levels of contamination are off the charts along the river there, so the 'built' environment will be at the decontaminated area only (because the NCC paid an arm and a leg to have it cleaned, only to hand it over to developers).

Millennium Park in Chicago is done pretty well, at least there's a purpose to the place. In the NCC plan, I like that there are baseball fields and soccer pitches. Regular users.

If we had the balls to host a 'starchitect' for one of those buildings, or some sort of Anish Kapoor/Ai Weiwei mashup, maybe we'd even have tourists coming down to view it.

[AuxTown]

Initially, I felt this proposal to be a bit underwhelming but the more I look at it the better it seems. It seems very practical and uses the existing topography and aquaducts in interesting ways. Just needs an 18000 seat arena and a tenant and we are off to the races!

[rocketphish]

Nothing in this vision will make people move to LeBreton Flats

Randall Denley, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 26, 2019

The National Capital Commission’s new “master concept plan” for LeBreton Flats strives for mediocrity and falls sadly short. The NCC’s “renewed vision” for the site includes housing, shops, services and plenty of grassy parks. If this were the plan for the next phase of Barrhaven, it would be impressive.

One would have expected any proposal for the Flats to include these elements, but offering a site map that shows where they would be located does not constitute a plan. What this plan lacks are the details of how it would be financed and a compelling reason for anyone to visit or choose to live there.

This last significant piece of land downtown can only meet its full potential if it contains major attractions of interest to tourists and Ottawans. So far, the NCC isn’t talking about anything that rises above the status of a pleasant neighbourhood amenity, other than the possibility of a hockey rink, someday.

The big idea behind the NCC plan is to sell off the development parcels on the site piecemeal, using the money to eventually put something into the designated open spaces. There are a few problems with this approach. The most obvious is that if the attractions are only built after the development dollars are in hand, what’s to interest people in moving to the Flats?

The NCC seems to have forgotten that it has gone down this road 15 years ago. It asked developers for proposals to build on part of the site. Only three submitted bids, and two of those dropped out. In the end, one local developer built some condos.

How much money does the NCC think it will take in from selling off this public land, and what can it build with that money? How much will it cost to service the site, and who will pay? Those are rather large details.

The NCC’s own long-held goal was to develop something of national significance on the Flats. That was the premise when the original neighbourhood was torn down. There is nothing in the new NCC plan that has any potential for national importance. Instead, this is the blend of uses one would expect from any developer. There is one critical difference, however. The NCC is not a developer and has no experience at doing what it plans for the Flats.

The NCC’s most recent attempt to develop LeBreton attracted two significant private sector partnerships. Both presented detailed plans that required millions of dollars and great expertise to develop.

The NCC demanded a lot of detail from the private sector developers, and demonstrated public value. Now that the NCC has put on the developer hat, it is offering neither detail nor public value. The commission’s own proposal is one that it would have rejected out of hand if someone else had come up with it.

Without a private sector partner to plan and manage the entire site, one has to ask how the NCC’s 2019 “vision” will be carried out over the years, as the government agency experiences the predictable changes of chief executive, board members, governments and ministers. And that’s not the worst part. This new approach changes the NCC’s role from making sure the private sector meets its commitments to becoming the developer itself. Who will hold the NCC accountable? Board members’ early enthusiasm for the bland mediocrity of the new plan is hardly encouraging.

The NCC plan is not entirely without merit. Short of proposing a warehouse district or a nuclear reactor, one can hardly go wrong in doing something with this fabulous site on the edge of downtown and the banks of the Ottawa River. If all goes well, a couple of decades from now, LeBreton Flats might be a pleasant place to live. That’s a modest accomplishment, even by Ottawa’s standards.

Mayor Jim Watson says the Flats plan needs a “wow factor.” So far, the wow factor is limited to “Wow – Is that the best they can do?”

Randall Denley is an Ottawa political commentator and author. Learn about his new book Spiked at randalldenley.com. Contact him at randalldenley1@gmail.com

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...lebreton-flats