Rail-based Transit Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've never been on the BRT buses but apparently ridership was much higher than anticipated.

Bedford unfortunately has been short-changed because of the ferry proposal that has dragged on forever. That is a common theme in the HRM - often, it's worse to have council propose something like that because they'll debate it for 20 years while everything is on hold.

I'm also not sure why there aren't more immediate plans for Clayton Park and possibly Spryfield routes. Maybe they were waiting for the transit garage. There were also plans for bus lanes on Bayers Road that would complement BRT service.

Clayton Park was delayed because of the bus garage and the fact that the Lacewood Terminal can't accommodate any more bus routes at it's current location (I believe its actually over capacity).

So until Lacewood is redone; no BRT.

[someone123]

Right.. I forgot about the terminal as well. That area was never even really designed to be a terminal.

[halifaxboyns]

So with the help of hfx_chris and a lot of patience (my computer at home doesn't like google maps and runs really slow); I've managed to take my original transportation plan that I posted months ago and do it up on google map for the groups consideration and consumption.

Before you go into it, a few comments:

• This is a REGIONAL plan for transportation - so it would occur over a period of 30 years;
• The blue line would be the first one done and is just less than 17km that would be combined below grade (cut/cover) and elevated;
• The green lines are proposed extensions to the main blue line - there are 2 options from Mumford. One to Lacewood terminal (where I assume it will be) and one to Mill Cove. I'm more preferential to Lacewood, because with a regional rail and high speed ferry, Bedford could be well served to major employment centres;
• Because this is a regional context; I felt that Halifax would have 2 lines and then Dartmouth would have 2; so there is one line that goes to both Halifax and Dartmouth and then a crosstown link on both sides;
• In light of some research, I'm inclined to believe that the rail system i'm proposing for Above/below grade should be similar to Vancouver Skytrain - the reduction in operating staff to run the trains would help offset capital costs;
• Where possible, I've noted for each station TOD opportunities;
• The Regional Rail line concept utilizes existing rail ROW and would be similar to the dayliners via runs for initial start up and then could expand to something bigger for increase capacity and frequency;
• High speed ferry service freequencies are noted.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the Blue/pink and red lines could also operate with an LRT system similar to Edmonton/Calgary - where there are operators running the train and could have at grade interactions. However, considering the traffic nightmare that 32nd Street is with the NE LRT - I'm partial to below and above grade where possible.

My concept also supports concerns DMjackson has said that Bedford and Sackville is underserviced for transportation. This takes into account some localized density increases (with the Mill cove project) and although not expressed in the concept - assumes that infilling opportunities near transit could occur (provided they are serviced lots).

Based on the research I've found; I'm estimating that the initial blue line construction would be in the range of 10 to 15B $ (that includes tunnels, trains, guideways and additional buses for servicing stations with feeder). That's conservative.

Would love to hear people's thoughts:
My Regional Transportation Map

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Based on the research I've found; I'm estimating that the initial blue line construction would be in the range of 10 to 15B $ (that includes tunnels, trains, guideways and additional buses for servicing stations with feeder). That's conservative.

Would love to hear people's thoughts:
My Regional Transportation Map

I like your ideas and plan, except at $1 billion dollars per mile, it will never be more than a fantasy.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I like your ideas and plan, except at $1 billion dollars per mile, it will never be more than a fantasy.

Well like I said; that was an estimate. I'm ball parking and I'm sure as the technology for tunneling in such intense rock becomes better and cheaper; that cost would come down. Plus, I'm never great with the cost estimates, so I could be way off.

[halifaxboyns]

Actually I can almost guarentee that my price was wrong; now that I had a better look.

I found a note that in 2006, Translink bought 38 trails and if you did the math it worked out at 3.2 million a train set (2 cars with the articulated centre). From what I could find, the cost today is about 3.4 - I priced them at 6.5; which is way more. I ended up doing the same because the Nova Bus artic's are about 350K, I somehow ended up pricing them at about 750. Whoops! I also suspect that my math doesn't take into account that the guideway would be cheaper than a tunnel.

I should really be more careful - so I'd say if I highballed things that much - the probably cost range would be more than likely in the 7 to 13 billion range. It's a good thing I'm not an accountant...that would be quite unfortunate. Yet another reason not to enter politics.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I ended up doing the same because the Nova Bus artic's are about 350K, I somehow ended up pricing them at about 750.

~700-750k is the correct value

[worldlyhaligonian]

Would it be possible to pave the rail cut around the tracks and retrofit a system where a wheeled vehicle could drive? (while kept in place by the tracks)

Could a company like Bombardier or Siemens do something like this for good value?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

~700-750k is the correct value

Oh well there you go I guess I was partially correct after all.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Would it be possible to pave the rail cut around the tracks and retrofit a system where a wheeled vehicle could drive? (while kept in place by the tracks)

Could a company like Bombardier or Siemens do something like this for good value?

I think the issue here would be the safety/interaction combination. Generally they don't want vehicles in the rail cut because if something happens that there is an accident with a train moving an any great speed with a truck; the truck will be torn to bits. That's why when an LRT is done near a train; they want some distance between them because the LRT isn't always built of the same materials as the train (usually more composits, which are lighter but not as sturdy). This is my understanding - if I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, in Calgary you can see this:


The right most track is the freight track. (source)

You could probably run guided buses in the railcut like the o-bahn in Adelaide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I think the issue here would be the safety/interaction combination. Generally they don't want vehicles in the rail cut because if something happens that there is an accident with a train moving an any great speed with a truck; the truck will be torn to bits. That's why when an LRT is done near a train; they want some distance between them because the LRT isn't always built of the same materials as the train (usually more composits, which are lighter but not as sturdy). This is my understanding - if I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

I think they can move the port and thus avoid trucks downtown and make the railcut the city's transport corridor.

The Australian case looks interesting... Too bad Sue Utek is protecting her own personal interests.

[musicman]

Has any of you heard about a straddling bus? It's a new concept that is going to be put into use in Beijing. Basically the bus is a raised platform that goes over the traffic below... They could be built to handle anywhere from 400 to 1400 people and the costs associated with building the system is 1/10th the price of a subway line... They can ride on embed rails or a painted line with sensors and best of all they run on electricity they get charged at every stop and use huge capacitors to store power and charge quickly...
It is a very neat concept.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by musicman

Has any of you heard about a straddling bus? It's a new concept that is going to be put into use in Beijing. Basically the bus is a raised platform that goes over the traffic below... They could be built to handle anywhere from 400 to 1400 people and the costs associated with building the system is 1/10th the price of a subway line... They can ride on embed rails or a painted line with sensors and best of all they run on electricity they get charged at every stop and use huge capacitors to store power and charge quickly...
It is a very neat concept.

I saw the mockups - very interesting indeed and might be a workable solution for Halifax given the geology. My only concern would be how well it would perform on hills (given the steep hills in HRM). But if it works well; why not?

[Jstaleness]

I was going to post the pictures and embed the video somehow but it's quicker to post a link of one of these options.
http://www.chinahush.com/2010/07/31/...ve-to-commute/

[Jstaleness]

Let's get some of these before Toronto and Vancouver do. Let's be first at something new instead of always being first to decline change!

[MalcolmTucker]

Until they are proven in China, which I doubt, it would be really stupid to think of this as a viable solution. Right now it is in the realm of gadgetbahn.

[Jstaleness]

I was just being sarcastic. Halifax could never use that type of system to its full potential. However! What would people say if something similar (on a smaller scale) were used on a few a streets. Sort of like a horizontal elevator. Say Barrington or Hollis st? A quick way from north to south for pedestrian traffic.

[hfx_chris]

I think it's one of the most retarded ideas to come out of Asia in a while

[musicman]

I was thinking the same thing. North, South or East, West.... no turns or stuff like that... It would take some major education for it to work... Let's face it there are still people who go the wrong way around the rotary... could you imagine these people stuck under one of these things.....lol It would be the best bang for your buck entertainment wise...lol