CFL in the Maritimes

[BlackYear]

I'd say, CFL in the Maritimes is dead. I don't expect to see another game around these parts for another 10 years. Attendance numbers don't lie!

I know there was talk of trying to get pro soccer to Moncton at the stadium. Organizers should try their luck at bringing a similar concept game with MLS (Major League Soccer). I'd be 100% on attending a game.

source:wikipedia

[BlackYear]

I took this photo from the inaugural 2010 Touchdown Atlantic. Largest crowd 20,750. There were great vibes back then. But for some reason, it faded pretty quickly after the 2011 game. Too bad.

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by BlackYear

I took this photo from the inaugural 2010 Touchdown Atlantic. Largest crowd 20,750. There were great vibes back then. But for some reason, it faded pretty quickly after the 2011 game. Too bad.

I think that once it became clear that NB was not on the table for an expansion team interest died in NB. NS games are more difficult to explain.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I think that once it became clear that NB was not on the table for an expansion team interest died in NB.

This is it in a nutshell.

The first Touchdown Atlantic in Moncton was magical. The event was heavily promoted, well managed and had significant ancillary events like street festivals and a high school football tournament. The CFL went out of it's way to make the city feel special. The game was a sellout. The second game the following year was similar, but, not as heavily promoted. By the time the third and fourth games came about, it was apparent the worm had turned. The CFL had lost interest, and was sending out signals that they were more interested in the Halifax market than in NB. Is it a surprise that interest in the games wained??? Monctonians began to feel as if they were being used and, being lied to by the CFL.

As for Halifax, they really need to get their shite together. Both the provincial government and the city of Halifax have shown little interest in building an appropriate stadium, and with HRM having a $75M operational deficit and the threat of a 10% property tax increase, this is unlikely to change. There is also no coherent ownership group on the horizon that I am aware of. Is there any real doubt as to why the next Touchdown game is going to Victoria? In fact, I am willing to predict right now that Touchdown Quebec in 2025 will be in Quebec City, and, that city will become the focus for a 10th team.

The CFL in the Maritimes is dead, dead, dead............

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by BlackYear

I know there was talk of trying to get pro soccer to Moncton at the stadium. Organizers should try their luck at bringing a similar concept game with MLS (Major League Soccer). I'd be 100% on attending a game.

Can't imagine MLS ever bothering to put Atlantic Canada anywhere near their radar. The current standard of stadiums, the expansion fee, ticket prices, average attendance etc, make it virtually impossible for any Canadian city outside the existing MTL/TOR/VAN to sustain a team, let alone the maritimes.

Personally I expect to see Montreal and/or Vancouver sold and relocated to the states with a decade. The league is on a whole different level economically from what it was a decade ago, it has long outgrown Canada.

Any talk of soccer in smaller/mid-sized cities in Canada begins and ends with CPL, and as time goes by it's looking more and more as though even *they* have less and less desire to expand into any more mid-sized or small markets. Halifax's ownership group were smart to get involved on day 1.

[GlassCity]

Latest article from 3DownNation on this topic, saying that the CFL is still working with a potential owner in Halifax, but that if it doesn't work out their attention will shift to Quebec City: https://3downnation.com/2023/12/02/c...andy-ambrosie/

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Both the provincial government and the city of Halifax have shown little interest in building an appropriate stadium, and with HRM having a $75M operational deficit and the threat of a 10% property tax increase, this is unlikely to change.

The "shortfall" is the preliminary budget suggested by staff measured against revenues from the previous fiscal year (e.g. assume wages go up 10% or building costs 20% YoY but revenues are the same as the previous year), and the "property tax increase" is just the size of that shortfall relative to the total. It doesn't account for inflation (3%+ lately), rising assessments (10%+ in recent years), or population growth (5%+ this year).

I agree a stadium for the CFL isn't up near the top of municipal priorities though.

[josh_cat_eyes]

I could see a team in Victoria and a team in Quebec City doing well. Perhaps London or Kitchener might be enticing markets as well.

Also, I know they’ve tried American expansion before, but I wonder if smaller mid sized cities closer the border could work for a 2nd American expansion.
Think upstate New York (Rochester, Syracuse, Albany) Grand Rapids Michigan, Portland Oregon, Boise Idaho, Manchester New Hampshire, Hartford Connecticut etc.

[jnaygull]

The CFL itself is in question. Atlantic Canada is not a CFL region. I have many sports friends, many who have children who play football, and none of them ever talk about CFL. It is all NFL.

If the CFL were ever to come here, they would have to start at the grassroots level and get the kids involved. Promote local teams, hold camps here, etc. With the league barely holding on as an entity, I don't think the energy and resources are there to nurture this market along.

[Taeolas]

I'm not a big sports fan in general, but I agree, if the CFL wants to take root out here, they need to do more marketing, not just TV channels but do more events out here in general to make people care about the teams and the league more.

The NFL may not directly market to us, but it's on so many TV stations constantly (because of the American networks we watch in general, not to mention the likes of CTV and Global airing NFL games), that it just takes up a lot more headspace here that the CFL would need to fight against.

Really, the Maritimes are basically a market with 2M people now; we should easily be able to support a pro sports team or two, especially for the big Canadian leagues. The CFL should be a no-brainer, if they would just put a bit of effort out here. But as usual, we remain the forgotten/neglected region.

[jnaygull]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I'm not a big sports fan in general, but I agree, if the CFL wants to take root out here, they need to do more marketing, not just TV channels but do more events out here in general to make people care about the teams and the league more.

The NFL may not directly market to us, but it's on so many TV stations constantly (because of the American networks we watch in general, not to mention the likes of CTV and Global airing NFL games), that it just takes up a lot more headspace here that the CFL would need to fight against.

Really, the Maritimes are basically a market with 2M people now; we should easily be able to support a pro sports team or two, especially for the big Canadian leagues. The CFL should be a no-brainer, if they would just put a bit of effort out here. But as usual, we remain the forgotten/neglected region.

I'm not so sure that it is a forgotten region as much as there is not a strong ownership group willing to pony up. It takes a significant investment to start a professional franchise and get it on stable footing. That investment certainly won't come from the existing ownership groups in the league, it has to come locally. Right about now, the CFL would welcome a deep-pocketed owner anywhere in Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jnaygull

I'm not so sure that it is a forgotten region as much as there is not a strong ownership group willing to pony up. It takes a significant investment to start a professional franchise and get it on stable footing. That investment certainly won't come from the existing ownership groups in the league, it has to come locally. Right about now, the CFL would welcome a deep-pocketed owner anywhere in Canada.

Owning a football team is a billionaires game. Although the Maritimes have a handful of prominent business families, they are not nearly as numerous as elsewhere in the country (and especially in the US).

This is one of the leading reasons why professional sports in Canada is so anemic compared to the states. The culture isn't there, and, there are fewer people with the ability or means to take on the risk of ownership.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Owning a football team is a billionaires game. Although the Maritimes have a handful of prominent business families, they are not nearly as numerous as elsewhere in the country (and especially in the US).

This is one of the leading reasons why professional sports in Canada is so anemic compared to the states. The culture isn't there, and, there are fewer people with the ability or means to take on the risk of ownership.

The other factor is the "Americanism" of any type of professional sports leagues. Every team needs to have a money, 20k - 30k seat stadium ready to go, needs to sell luxury seats, season ticket drives etc.

When if there was no expansion fee or "stadium requirement", I'm sure you'd see a team in Halifax at the wanderer grounds or in Wolfville. A team in Moncton, Quebec, Nanaimo, Kamloops etc. It's annoying everything costs so much and needs to be squeaky clean.

Different world and sports but look at the premier league the past decade with teams like Luton and Bournemouth who came up with 10k or less seat stadiums. Girona in La Liga who is top of the league ahead of Real Madrid / Barcelona and they use a 10k seat arena (they are owned by the Man City group, however )

Why can't Halifax or Moncton have an unconventional stadium if people are interested they'll show up and support. I guess Canada is too big for local clubs to be established and be anything more than amateur teams.

One of the reasons why I love seeing Baie-Comeau doing so well this year! Love a small town team with a loyal support getting to see their team beat absolutely everyone.

[elly63]

Seems to be some misinformation in this thread. If you've been keeping up with the reading you know the CFL has been in serious talks with a potential owner (as one poster has said). If that doesn't work out or show significant progress the CFL has a board meeting coming up very soon where it will be recommended to either follow through or move on permanently from Halifax.

The potential owner is rumoured to be Rob Steele (Steele Auto Group) 64 car dealerships. He sold his media company NCC (NewCap radio) to the influential media company Stingray for $506 million dollars (the number varies by a few million according to the stock price at time of purchase) and bought 25 million in Stingray stock and is on the BOD. He is in the NS Business Hall of Fame and a director of the Halifax Mooseheads. He is an advisor to the East Coast Music Awards, so he knows both sports and entertainment.

Now I have to wonder why his name hasn't come up, either it is really serious and they don't want to blow it or it is BS. But as a prominent BC Lions reporter reported it I am surprised no one confirmed or denied it.

From what I've read SMU is very much on board with this. Having said that, people are way off base thinking there will be some sort of $200 million dollar stadium. If this happens, what you are likely to see is a more permanent version of Empire Field at 18-20k seats which is well within the realm of possibility.

Where the HRM stands I don't know, but this will likely be resolved in the coming days where it will either speedily progress or will be dead for a long time.

Unlike some I have learned not to naysay the CFL. Billionaires like Pierre Karl Peledeau, Amar Doman and Stelco in the last few years want in. Generally you don't get to be a billionaire by making bad transactions.

Look for news soon, it's either gonna be good or dead.

[Luisito]

A CFL team for halifax would be great.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by elly63

Seems to be some misinformation in this thread. If you've been keeping up with the reading you know the CFL has been in serious talks with a potential owner (as one poster has said). If that doesn't work out or show significant progress the CFL has a board meeting coming up very soon where it will be recommended to either follow through or move on permanently from Halifax.

The logic of this isn't very clear. Are they saying that if some billionaire owner in Quebec City wanted to get a CFL team going there they'd say no today because they only want one in Halifax? I doubt it. The singling out of Halifax seems to have more to do with the CFL wanting a team there than the city being somehow worse at setting up a team than other Canadian cities that also don't have the facilities or potential owners clamoring for a team. I think they realize that it's the best spot for another team because it's unique in Canada as a dominant mid-sized city in an underserved region.

I think a lot of the discussion around this doesn't really make sense and the situation is less dramatic than how it is often presented, with not much changing from year to year.

[elly63]

I wouldn't say not much is changing year to year if there is a truly interested potential owner. In this whole 40 year saga that hasn't been true for most of that time. I think a better case can be made that the Halifax administration has maintained a status quo.

The three things needed for a franchise are an owner, stadium and a fanbase. Once you have an owner the rest can fall into place. The previous ownership group had focused on a traditional stadium and were hamstrung by the pandemic although I think that ship had sailed before the pandemic.

How much cooperation is really needed from the city if an owner and SMU couple? It seems the least the city would do is provide the same amount of service as they have for the TD Atl that being a worst case scenario.

The league wants a tenth team, that's a given, that solves a number of issues. The dream is to have a true Atlantic to Pacific league, if that is not going to happen they move on. You can't keep pining away for your old girlfriend you have to move forward.

I'm always the first one to say things change and things can happen fast but as of now talking about Quebec is hypothetical. Unless both Ambrosie and the BC Lions guy are lying there is something afoot in Halifax

And as I have posted, this story may be ending soon. If it isn't announced in the next two weeks that the dream is over then there is a serious effort afoot. And I don't mean the same crap that we have seen for the last few years.

My problem is totally with the non identification of the potential owner. We know that PKP called Ambrosie and said he wanted to buy the Als. Ambrosie (while likely internally jumping for joy) told PKP he had to go through the vetting process with Park Lane, that could be happening here. If it's the guy who has been rumoured, he has a lot more sway in Halifax than the previous ownership hopefuls.

[elly63]

Total disclosure, this is a purely BS, hypothetical, coincidental, speculative post. I'm just stirring the hypothetical pot until the final news is broken

What if this (below) is Stingray or Rob Steele, He is on the BOD for Stingray Group who are based in Montreal. I'm finding out that Steele and family are Stingray's largest third-party shareholder and how big an entity Stingray is.

What if it was Stingray or Steele who was interested in the Als? From June 16, 2023

[Taeolas]

Growing the league to an even number of teams seems to be a no brainer, since it makes playoffs more obvious.

I suspect ultimately they may aim to have a 16 team league, since a Power of 2 is always nice when you have any sort of playoff/elimination scheme. But that would basically mean doubling the size of the league which would be a lot to do quickly.

Hopefully that is in the works, which would probably mean Victoria, QC and Halifax teams at a minimum, along with maybe a London.

that would put them at 12 or 13 teams. Finding 3-4 more would be tough; you're probably not getting a second team in Saskatchewan or Manitoba but they would need another Western team or two without a doubt. St John's might be possible, Moncton might be very likely in that scenario (as the 15th or 16th team in 10+ years maybe). A third Quebec team (Sherbrooke maybe?) would probably be looked at too.

So, CFL 2040.... 16 team league, from East to west:
St John's
Halifax
Moncton
QC
Sherbrooke
Montreal
Ottawa
Toronto
Hamilton
London
Winnipeg
Regina
Saskatoon (3rd prairie team)
Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
Victoria

17 possible team locations, but really Saskatoon, Sherbrooke, Moncton and St John's are all somewhat iffy as possible locations. They'd also probably want to keep them East-West balanced, which would be a bit of a challenge; even with these 17 teams, the West still only has 7 teams, which means they'd probably look to squeeze in an 8th west of Toronto somewhere; Thunder Bay or Red Deer maybe. (and keep London in the dark)

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Growing the league to an even number of teams seems to be a no brainer, since it makes playoffs more obvious.

I suspect ultimately they may aim to have a 16 team league, since a Power of 2 is always nice when you have any sort of playoff/elimination scheme. But that would basically mean doubling the size of the league which would be a lot to do quickly.

Hopefully that is in the works, which would probably mean Victoria, QC and Halifax teams at a minimum, along with maybe a London.

that would put them at 12 or 13 teams. Finding 3-4 more would be tough; you're probably not getting a second team in Saskatchewan or Manitoba but they would need another Western team or two without a doubt. St John's might be possible, Moncton might be very likely in that scenario (as the 15th or 16th team in 10+ years maybe). A third Quebec team (Sherbrooke maybe?) would probably be looked at too.

So, CFL 2040.... 16 team league, from East to west:
St John's
Halifax
Moncton
QC
Sherbrooke
Montreal
Ottawa
Toronto
Hamilton
London
Winnipeg
Regina
Saskatoon (3rd prairie team)
Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
Victoria

17 possible team locations, but really Saskatoon, Sherbrooke, Moncton and St John's are all somewhat iffy as possible locations. They'd also probably want to keep them East-West balanced, which would be a bit of a challenge; even with these 17 teams, the West still only has 7 teams, which means they'd probably look to squeeze in an 8th west of Toronto somewhere; Thunder Bay or Red Deer maybe. (and keep London in the dark)

I like your list. I believe that Saskatoon could easily support a team, as they seem to go wild over sports there and the CFL support is generational. Their NLL games were wild and every one I went to was a sell-out.

The only other Western city I could see supporting a team might be Kelowna. Nice population base, and not a lot of sports competition.