Rail in Canada

[swimmer_spe]

I am starting this thread to discuss how we have systematically removed all strategic means of moving goods.

Go back 50 years ago. Most CF Bases had rail lines to it. Now, much has been abandoned. I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are.

I will list some of the major bases E-W and show what I mean.

HMC Dockyard (Halifax) - CN line used to go into it, now a parking lot.
CFB Greenwood - the line to it is now a rail trail.
CFB Gagetown - Still has it.
CFB Valcartier -Nothing to it
CFB Petwawa - Abandoned line
CFB Borden - Line is in disrepair to Angus and gone from the base.
CFB Shilo - Still has it
CFB Cold Lake - abandoned line
CFB Wainright - has a line near it
CFB Esquimalt - line is in disrepair.
CFB Comox - Line is in disrepair

There are others that I have left out as they are not that large when it comes to moving assets. Imagine having to move tanks across Canada. CFB Petawawa is one of the biggest army bases and there is no rail link to it.

Should the Canadian government come up with a strategic plan for maintaining low use lines for military moves? Or is this irrelevant?

[Truenorth00]

Irrelevant. We have strategic airlift now for rapid movement. And our logistics folks (JOSG) have never had an issue using rail to move equipment by rail when necessary. There's YouTube videos of this.

Through the GTA:

• Video Link

Through New Brunswick:

• Video Link

Not only does JOSG routinely move Canadian kit by rail, they also move American kit by rail when Americans come up on exercise. British kit is also routinely moved by rail from Montreal to BATUS in Suffield, with assistance from JOSG.

The requirements are very different for each service. The Army tends to use rail a lot. The air force almost never uses rail. A lot of our supply requirements are time sensitive and use commercial operators (like FedEx Ground) or service airlift (task a Herc to go move an engine). Rail is way too slow for the air force.

In any event, DND talks to rail operators and shares rail access requirements with them. There's not really much that the public could discuss or be aware off on this.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am starting this thread to discuss how we have systematically removed all strategic means of moving goods.

Go back 50 years ago. Most CF Bases had rail lines to it. Now, much has been abandoned. I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are.

I will list some of the major bases E-W and show what I mean.

HMC Dockyard (Halifax) - CN line used to go into it, now a parking lot.
CFB Greenwood - the line to it is now a rail trail.
CFB Gagetown - Still has it.
CFB Valcartier -Nothing to it
CFB Petwawa - Abandoned line
CFB Borden - Line is in disrepair to Angus and gone from the base.
CFB Shilo - Still has it
CFB Cold Lake - abandoned line
CFB Wainright - has a line near it
CFB Esquimalt - line is in disrepair.
CFB Comox - Line is in disrepair

There are others that I have left out as they are not that large when it comes to moving assets. Imagine having to move tanks across Canada. CFB Petawawa is one of the biggest army bases and there is no rail link to it.

Should the Canadian government come up with a strategic plan for maintaining low use lines for military moves? Or is this irrelevant?

Gagetown has no line to it either. It doesnt matter. Anytime excercises are held there and units from across the country and the US partake in them, the equipment arrives into Moncton by rail and driven to the base. In the case of tanks and other tracked vehicles theyre loaded on the the CFs heavy haulers and floated to the base.

[Airboy]

Like Wainwight, CFB Suffield has a line running beside it. The wainwright rail yard is beside the main gate.

The old Edmonton Base (Griesbach) had a line that ran into it. Now the Base uses the west Edmonton Rail yards. but it would not be tough to add a line into the garrison. There is a spur line a short distance away.

The Suffield line may be busy as the Brits move there tanks out.

When Canada brought the Leopard 2 in they could not use the rail lines and each had to be trucked from the east coast.

[Truenorth00]

Something not understood is that our most important Sea Port of Embarkation (SPOE) is Montreal. Not Halifax. And Montreal is well connected by rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Something not understood is that our most important Sea Port of Embarkation (SPOE) is Montreal. Not Halifax. And Montreal is well connected by rail.

Ok. Get a 100 tanks to Montreal from CFB Petawawa.
Not LAVs
Not rubber tracked tanks.

Full battle with metal track tanks. Move them less than 400 km.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok. Get a 100 tanks to Montreal from CFB Petawawa.
Not LAVs
Not rubber tracked tanks.

Full battle with metal track tanks. Move them less than 400 km.

I don't get your point. JOSG does this today with the infrastructure we have, when they have to send some to Europe or the US for an exercise.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't get your point. JOSG does this today with the infrastructure we have, when they have to send some to Europe or the US for an exercise.

The point is that during peacetime, that is easy and simple. Today, we are in a peacetime world. Let's say WW3 breaks out.

How many tanks fit on a Globemaster?

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok. Get a 100 tanks to Montreal from CFB Petawawa.
Not LAVs
Not rubber tracked tanks.

Full battle with metal track tanks. Move them less than 400 km.

https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/03/...s-401-toronto/

Based on the direction of travel they are heading to Manitoba or Alberta.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Airboy

https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/03/...s-401-toronto/

Based on the direction of travel they are heading to Manitoba or Alberta.

Yes. But what about the largest Army base in Ontario?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The point is that during peacetime, that is easy and simple. Today, we are in a peacetime world. Let's say WW3 breaks out.

How many tanks fit on a Globemaster?

Nobody said anything about Globemasters. The logistic folks move those tanks by road and rail around the country today. So what is the challenge that you see?

Also, if you're concerned about WWIII, this discussion is moot. We'll be in the nuclear holocaust phase before those tanks even get loaded on a ship to Europe, if it's genuinely WWIII. For any conventional conflict and escalation, we have weeks of build up.

Incidentally, the difficulty in mobilizing heavy armour is part of the reason the US Marine Corps is ditching tanks permanently and the US Army went to Stryker Brigades that they can deploy by C17 in 96 hrs. I really wouldn't bet on Canada fielding tanks into the 2030s. There will be plenty of discussion about all this after watching Russian armour get torn open like tin cans by $100k NLAWs in Ukraine.

On the topic itself, the only folks qualified to tell us if there's a problem in moving a piece of kit are the logistics folks at JOSG. If they don't see an issue, spending tens or even hundreds of millions to build rail lines or spurs to military bases, would be a substantial waste of money. If they ask for a link, sure. But I don't think there's ever been a specific ask.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody said anything about Globemasters. The logistic folks move those tanks by road and rail around the country today. So what is the challenge that you see?

Also, if you're concerned about WWIII, this discussion is moot. We'll be in the nuclear holocaust phase before those tanks even get loaded on a ship to Europe, if it's genuinely WWIII. For any conventional conflict and escalation, we have weeks of build up.

Incidentally, the difficulty in mobilizing heavy armour is part of the reason the US Marine Corps is ditching tanks permanently and the US Army went to Stryker Brigades that they can deploy by C17 in 96 hrs. I really wouldn't bet on Canada fielding tanks into the 2030s. There will be plenty of discussion about all this after watching Russian armour get torn open like tin cans by $100k NLAWs in Ukraine.

On the topic itself, the only folks qualified to tell us if there's a problem in moving a piece of kit are the logistics folks at JOSG. If they don't see an issue, spending tens or even hundreds of millions to build rail lines or spurs to military bases, would beat substantial waste of money.

They can't speak as freely as one might want them to.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The point is that during peacetime, that is easy and simple. Today, we are in a peacetime world. Let's say WW3 breaks out.

I am curious about what potential large-scale conflict would require tanks in substantial numbers quickly that doesn't evolve into a nuclear war. Or a conflict that uses tanks in any serious numbers at all Canada would be involved in.

It used to be the potential of Russia driving across Eastern Europe doing their Warsaw Pact re-enactment, but their performance just getting into the country next door dispels that particular concern. If the Ukrainians can give the Russians a serious problem, one wonders what NATO forces would do to them.

Having rail lines to bases is very far down the list of Canada's military weak spots as it stands today.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Having rail lines to bases is very far down the list of Canada's military weak spots as it stands today.

It's another variation of industrial and regional benefits. We pay higher prices on procurement so that some First Nations company gets a military contract, or there's a specific allocation of business to a given province. Guess we can get the military to pay for rail infrastructure it's not asking for?

He assumes that for some reason military logistics officers can't tell command what they need. Dunno what to say to conspiracy theories, except that we literally have an open database inside the CAF/DND where anybody can staff a Statement of Capability Deficiency (SOCD) detailing a specific need, visible to everybody. I've seen corporals put one in for better gloves. They might not get addressed and they are prioritized. But the idea that there's no mechanism for our logistics folks to honestly request a rail connection, is bunk. Also, any SOCD filed out at something like the base commander level is going to the ADM and CDS within days. So the idea that the logistics officer for Petawawa can't tell the CDS that their base needs a rail link is laughable.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I am curious about what potential large-scale conflict would require tanks in substantial numbers quickly that doesn't evolve into a nuclear war. Or a conflict that uses tanks in any serious numbers at all Canada would be involved in.

It used to be the potential of Russia driving across Eastern Europe doing their Warsaw Pact re-enactment, but their performance just getting into the country next door dispels that particular concern. If the Ukrainians can give the Russians a serious problem, one wonders what NATO forces would do to them.

Having rail lines to bases is very far down the list of Canada's military weak spots as it stands today.

Lets say a non nuclear incursion into a NATO country were to happen. Canada would be obligated to join in. How would we mobilize our heavy equipment?If we wanted to load them onto cargo ships to Europe, how would we get them to Montreal (or Halifax in winter when Montreal ports are frozen)?
From some bases, it would be possible to load them on a train and do moves like those videos posted. What about from Petawawa? We would have to resort to flatbed trucks.

I know that it is low on the list. When you have so much need, you choose things that you need now. They need equipment now.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's another variation of industrial and regional benefits. We pay higher prices on procurement so that some First Nations company gets a military contract, or there's a specific allocation of business to a given province. Guess we can get the military to pay for rail infrastructure it's not asking for?

He assumes that for some reason military logistics officers can't tell command what they need. Dunno what to say to conspiracy theories, except that we literally have an open database inside the CAF/DND where anybody can staff a Statement of Capability Deficiency (SOCD) detailing a specific need, visible to everybody. I've seen corporals put one in for better gloves. They might not get addressed and they are prioritized. But the idea that there's no mechanism for our logistics folks to honestly request a rail connection, is bunk. Also, any SOCD filed out at something like the base commander level is going to the ADM and CDS within days. So the idea that the logistics officer for Petawawa can't tell the CDS that their base needs a rail link is laughable.

I am not suggesting that you cannot say it. I am saying that most would not think of it. The rail link from Petawawa has been cut for more than 20 years. That system isn't that old. I don't even think that system existed 10 years ago while I was in, unless it is only for those in Logistics.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am not suggesting that you cannot say it. I am saying that most would not think of it. The rail link from Petawawa has been cut for more than 20 years. That system isn't that old. I don't even think that system existed 10 years ago while I was in, unless it is only for those in Logistics.

From, "They can't be honest at their job," to, "Movements officers are too incompetent to know what they need to move things."

I will never understand why people always insist that they know somebody's actual job better than them..... Just because your hobby intersects with their profession.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

From, "They can't be honest at their job," to, "Movements officers are too incompetent to know what they need to move things."

I will never understand why people always insist that they know somebody's actual job better than them.

When you have dealt with enough incompetency......
I really do not feel that I should list all that I personally experienced. If you served and served more than an initial TOS, you would either agree with me, or were so incompetent that your we oblivious to it. If you did not serve, that is ok that you think everyone is the best at their jobs.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

When you have dealt with enough incompetency......
I really do not feel that I should list all that I personally experienced. If you served and served more than an initial TOS, you would either agree with me, or were so incompetent that your we oblivious to it. If you did not serve, that is ok that you think everyone is the best at their jobs.

Alright. So what other professions do you think you should get to overrule in the CAF and the Government of Canada? Does your personal experience with incompetency somehow make everybody else redundant?

I've had my share of dealing with people that honestly screwed up, or maybe even were bad at what they did. You still wouldn't catch me telling a sailor I know ships better than them or an armoured crewmen that I know tanks better than her. This reminds me of people who do their own "research" for COVID.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alright. So what other professions do you think you should get to overrule in the CAF and the Government of Canada? Does your personal experience with incompetency somehow mean make everybody else redundant?

Other professions?
Well, since the public already thinks they know more than the military as to what the military needs......

Sounds like either you have not served, and are part of the public that wants to continue to chip away at the readiness of the CAF,
or worse....