Do any malls in Canada treat their bus passengers this bad?

[ue]

^ Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec City all have both thriving suburban malls and people of all makes utilizing public transit. Just because someone came in on a bus doesn't mean they won't buy something from Armani or Holt Renfrew, at least in Canada (but also in many American cities).

[SignalHillHiker]

Meh... I think not rolling out the red carpet for the public transit crowd is still a pretty safe bet for mall owners anywhere, especially in cities where suburban malls have the most prestigious shops.

It's an easy way to discourage a shitload of people you don't want from coming. If you lose a handful of folks with money, well, whatever. I'm sure the undesirable people you keep out more than makes up for it in the long run.

[SignalHillHiker]

Found an article:

St. John's mall gives Metrobus the boot

The Village Mall in west-end St. John's has asked the city's public transportation system to relocate a bus stop it fears may be hazardous and resulting in a loss of business for retailers.

Metrobus general manager Judy Powell said mall retailers experienced an increase in sales and "a reduction in the number of security-related incidents" during the three-month transportation strike.

Powell said Metrobus has until Aug. 22 to find a new transfer station in the same area.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfou...boot-1.1015225

[ue]

^ What the fuck? No one is talking about red carpets. We're talking about decent access for transit users who are just as likely to spend good money at malls as car owners. Remember, in your own words, Newfoundland is a bit different from the ROC, so while most transit users in St. John's may be poor, this isn't the case in the ROC (even Quebec, the other Canadian anomaly). Seriously, as a transit user, I find your post highly offensive.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by ue

^ What the fuck? No one is talking about red carpets. We're talking about decent access for transit users who are just as likely to spend good money at malls as car owners. Remember, in your own words, Newfoundland is a bit different from the ROC, so while most transit users in St. John's may be poor, this isn't the case in the ROC (even Quebec, the other Canadian anomaly).

Oh, I understand. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate. Lots of fine people use public transit, I know that, especially in mainland Canadian cities because it's valued there and there's no stigma attached to it.

But here, riding the bus is EXACTLY the equivalent of shopping at a thrift store, going to a food bank, living in a shelter, etc. It's something you do only if you have no other choice.

You don't want to make it easy for those folks to get to your mall. And I'm assuming it's similar in American cities, just a suggestion for why they may not be rolling out the red carpet. That might not be what's going on in the U.S. at all, but it's what's going on here. So I'm guessing, you know... could apply there too.

[ue]

^ Ah, ok. I understand that may be why Cleveland's malls may want to make it more difficult for transit users to access its malls, but Mike pointed out that many shoppers opt to use the bus (so not just loiterers), not to mention many of the mall's workers. I think in many US cities, bus usage has the stigma that is the same as the reality you ascribe to St. John's transit users, but in reality many transit users in US cities come from all sorts of backgrounds.

At least some cities like Portland, SF, LA (?), Denver, Chicago, Minneapolis, DC, NYC, and Boston (?) are a bit more like their Canadian brethren.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm guessing anywhere in the U.S. that has a reputation as a place you might like to visit is probably pretty close to mainland Canada as far as public transit goes.

I think it's safe to say this sort of problem is a pretty primitive, self-inflicted one.

[ue]

^ To an certain extent, I suppose. I'd rather visit Detroit over Minneapolis, though. Plus there are non-urban places where public transit, as expected, is pretty much non-existent .

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

the malls in winnipeg are generaly major transit hubs in winnipeg

When I was in Winnipeg I noted the transit orientation around places like Polo Park, it simply isn't the case in the US.

As others have stated, in the US transit is seen as a good that only services the least among us, and in the US typically that means people of a poor minority background, so malls and transit agencies don't see eye to eye.

Its a world of difference when you hop the border just here in Buffalo-Niagara. Niagara Falls, ON has a utilized service that helps everyone get around from wealthy tourists hopping between casinos and hotels or locals, in Buffalo NFTA is seen as the indigent form of transit.

[SignalHillHiker]

Minneapolis is so shockingly liberal! I'd love to visit it.

But, yeah, Detroit is a bigger draw. I wouldn't be surprised if its a mythical, romanticized story in 100 years - like Atlantis or something. And we can say we saw it when...

BTW, just noticed that you added you were offended by one of my previous posts. Sorry! Not my intention at all. Just chewing the fat, discussing the ideas. I'm most definitely lower class than you. And I love public transit in other cities. When I lived in Winnipeg, I used public transit all the time. I have daydreams about riding the trams in Toronto. I want to visit Calgary just to ride the trains with the best views of the city.

But here... no thanks. I can't even say with confidence that I have ever set foot inside a bus here.

[ue]

^ Definitely wouldn't mind visiting Minneapolis, but it's lower on the list compared to Detroit for me. All that former grandeur just sitting there is enticing to me, especially coming from such a modern city lacking in grandeur and history, or at least the grandeur and history is still being written and built here.

It's ok, now that I know you were just playing devil's advocate and know that your experiences in St. John's aren't mirrored elsewhere in Canada, I'm fine. By the way, if you ever make it out to Edmonton, you'd probably love the view from the LRT crossing the river between Grandin and University stations. Or take it one step further, in the summertime, a heritage streetcar is run by volunteers that goes from Grandin to Old Strathcona, crossing over the top of the High Level Bridge (a level above the vehicle/pedestrian level). You get these sweeping views of the city with the whole river valley underneath you. It's quite nice.

[Doady]

Metrobus Transit's 24.1 riders per capita in 2012 is somewhat below average by Canadian standards but not that much. St John's still has way better ridership than most systems in the US, especially those serving urban areas of 200k people or less.

Compare to some similarly sized Canadian systems, it's not a huge difference:

Guelph Transit: 54.1
Peterborough Transit: 43.0
St. Catherines Transit: 36.5
Thunder Bay Transit: 33.8
Greater Sudbury Transit: 32.2
Kingston Transit: 32.1
Transit Windsor 30.4

Canadian transit ridership is around 2.5 times higher than US (and that's including NYC). St. John's isn't as low as that...

[SignalHillHiker]

That's really encouraging, Doady, thanks.

Part of me worries it means we have lots of poor folks... another part of me thinks... foiled by MUN students from other provinces. Because our local MUN students aren't using it, but the come-from-aways are.

And the optimistic part of me thinks... hey, maybe it's a semi-functioning public transit system after all.

[MTLskyline]

This document gives a pretty good tally of all the different costs in operating a motor vehicle. It's around 10x the cost of transit passes in most cases... We're talking about a cost around $20/day, and that's not even including fuel...

Having said that, I think a good compromise is renting cars/car sharing. Commute using transit, and rent a car only when you need one (such as a road trip to the country).

[middeljohn]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Busses typically aren't bringing the people with the big bucks.

In Oakville teenage girls take the bus to go spend daddy's money.

[middeljohn]

Originally Posted by MTLskyline

This document gives a pretty good tally of all the different costs in operating a motor vehicle. It's around 10x the cost of transit passes in most cases... We're talking about a cost around $20/day, and that's not even including fuel...

Having said that, I think a good compromise is renting cars/car sharing. Commute using transit, and rent a car only when you need one (such as a road trip to the country).

What about hours lost due to transit taking longer?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

In the Metro Vancouver situation, The owners of Coquitlam Centre were willing to pay extra to ensure the Evergreen Line has a station on their property. All the major malls in the Skytrain line areas have stations nearby and have decent connections if they are off property.

You see a similar thing in Ottawa too. Bayshore, St. Laurent, and Rideau (the 3 major malls in the city) all WANT transit connections, and they're pretty vocal about it too.

[SkahHigh]

Some major malls in the Montreal area, like Fairview in Pointe-Claire and Carrefour Laval in Laval, have bus transit terminals inside their parking area.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Well, come on? Malls are private businesses. Busses typically aren't bringing the people with the big bucks. You really want to fill your mall up with those folks? I'd doubt it. For a mall owner, these are dozens of food court loiterers you'd rather do without.

In cities where everyone uses transit, sure, then you'd want them to have easy access... but if everyone is using transit, the city is probably dense enough that suburban malls aren't a thing anyway.

Someone has to keep the Timmies in the food court alive.

Transit in Regina is craptacular. Regina Transit needs to build some proper facilities in the downtown and at the hubs they have created.

Even just a covered shelter with maybe some warming element for the winter. It's been horrifically cold this year here at lot of days. Today seemed nice. The windchill was only -33C this morning.

[Mike K.]

In Mike's example it could very well be a case of insurance restrictions. Allow public transit onto your property and expose your property to additional risk, requiring higher premiums and so on. Things just work differently in various jurisdictions and underlying restraints shape the urban fabric.

Regarding the snowed in bus stop, that's just brutal. Shame on the transit system for not ensuring riders can safely enter and exit their vehicles.