Commuter Rail/Regional Rail in Canada

[swimmer_spe]

I am starting this thread to discuss all things commuter rail and Regional Rail in Canada.
This can include:
History,
Existing
Future
Planned
Under construction
And of course, a bit of fantasy.

Currently, we have 3 systems within the metros of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. There have been talks of something in Ottawa area, but so far, nothing actually announced.

[ssiguy]

Vancouver does have the West Coast Express but it is not even remotely the scale of GO or EXO. It is just a single line with 6 trains in/out on weekdays only. It's ridership is about 10,000 a day which hasn't budged in 20 years. The service is inconvenient and incredibly slow due to the city's poor rail infrastructure. I don't think Vancouver will ever develop an effective commuter/suburban rail system.

I think Calgary would be a good market as Airdrie is growing at a dizzing rate and the infrastructure is in place. I think a GO system serving Hamilton as it's base and not just Union would be viable. Within 40 km of Hamilton there are 2 million NOT including any of the GTA.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Vancouver does have the West Coast Express but it is not even remotely the scale of GO or EXO. It is just a single line with 6 trains in/out on weekdays only. It's ridership is about 10,000 a day which hasn't budged in 20 years. The service is inconvenient and incredibly slow due to the city's poor rail infrastructure. I don't think Vancouver will ever develop an effective commuter/suburban rail system.

By the time they get around to it, the Skytrain will be at crush load during peak times, and those on the inner stations won't find space for several trains - kinda like Line 1 in Toronto.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think Calgary would be a good market as Airdrie is growing at a dizzing rate and the infrastructure is in place. I think a GO system serving Hamilton as it's base and not just Union would be viable. Within 40 km of Hamilton there are 2 million NOT including any of the GTA.

Calgary could make sense. It does have the rail infrastructure to support it.

Hamilton is tricky due to the mountain.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Hamilton is tricky due to the mountain.

It's not really the mountain, it's the limited rail corridors. There used to be one going up the escarpment and then south to Caledonia and points farther, but it was ripped up 30+ years ago and replaced by a multi-use trail (which is fantastic). Basically the CN line heading to Niagara is the only realistic option; CP has one that runs that direction too, but far south of CN's and it really doesn't run through many populated areas. There's a CP line that goes up toward Guelph and connects with their main east-west corridor... but it's single track, not very direct, and again doesn't hit much population north of Waterdown.

I suppose trains could run to Brantford on the CN corridor. But the realistic connecting station would be Aldershot.

GO could base its Niagara rail service from Hamilton. Otherwise, a network of bus routes radiating out from one/both of the GO train stations is probably the best bet for Hamilton-based services to surrounding cities and towns.

Long, long ago -- late 19th century and early 20th -- there was a radial network of electric train lines that served the city. It's a shame that did not survive, because it would offer so many options today. Some of the corridors still exist but for other uses: there's one that runs up the escarpment west of downtown to Ancaster; it's been a pedestrian/cycling trail for decades too, and a very popular one.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

It's not the mountain, it's the limited rail corridors. There used to be one going up the escarpment and then south to Caledonia and points farther, but it was ripped up 30+ years ago and replaced by a multi-use trail (which is fantastic). Basically the CN line heading to Niagara is the only realistic option; CP has one that runs that direction too, but far south of CN's and it really doesn't run through many populated areas. There's a CP line that goes up toward Guelph and connects with their main east-west corridor... but it's single track, not very direct, and again doesn't hit much population north of Waterdown.

I suppose trains could run to Brantford on the CN corridor. But the realistic connecting station would be Aldershot.

GO could base its Niagara rail service from Hamilton. Otherwise, a network of bus routes radiating out from one/both of the GO train stations is probably the best bet for Hamilton-based services to surrounding cities and towns.

This is why it is tricky. Unlike other places, sticking a new line along the mountain won't be easy or cheap. Returning the rail trail back to use for trains may be the best option, at the same time upsetting residents. For other major cities, they still have their rail corridors mainly intact to use.

[Innsertnamehere]

Realistically there could only be commuter rail from Brantford and Niagara to Hamilton, and even then I'm doubtful, as those services would be more likely to be focused on Toronto bound service. It would be GO service and be integrated into the GTA commuter rail network so I'm not sure it would count as a separate system anyway.

I could see commuter rail services working well in Calgary, though there hasn't been any discussions of that. Other than there, I just don't see a market for a new commuter rail service. The Ottawa proposal is a joke.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Realistically there could only be commuter rail from Brantford and Niagara to Hamilton, and even then I'm doubtful, as those services would be more likely to be focused on Toronto bound service. It would be GO service and be integrated into the GTA commuter rail network so I'm not sure it would count as a separate system anyway.

I could see commuter rail services working well in Calgary, though there hasn't been any discussions of that. Other than there, I just don't see a market for a new commuter rail service. The Ottawa proposal is a joke.

The Ottawa proposal, as it stands is a joke. The corridors listed would actually be a good thing.

[jamincan]

I think it's plausible that we could see some form of regional rail in SWO, but I would consider that quite distinct from commuter rail. Imagine Hamilton-Brantford-Woodstock-London, or Hamilton-Guelph-Kitchener, or Kitchener-Stratford-London, running on DMUs like the Trillium Line in Ottawa.

Of course, it would be nice if we could actually have bus service on routes like this first. Metrolinx has a really hard time understanding that there are people in this world who want to go from one place to another place where neither is Toronto.

[JHikka]

I know nothing of the politics wrt rail ownership and right-of-way but central Guelph and central Kitchener are only 22km apart and there's a rail line that runs direct between the two. Seems like a no-brainer down the line.

[MonctonRad]

I'll toss in a desire for regional rail service in the Saint John/Moncton/Halifax corridor.

This corridor has over a million people (over half the population of the Maritimes), and the existing trackage is well maintained. It deserves service at least several times per day.

I would try and put Fredericton into the mix too, but there are no longer any rail tracks leading to Freddy.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is why it is tricky. Unlike other places, sticking a new line along the mountain won't be easy or cheap. Returning the rail trail back to use for trains may be the best option, at the same time upsetting residents. For other major cities, they still have their rail corridors mainly intact to use.

I really don't think there would be enough demand for it. Hamilton Mountain would have the most: there are a couple of hundred thousand people living in the upper/south portion of the city, plus more farther southeast in the urban area -- putting tracks down on that rail trail would be controversial, but a station up top could well serve that population. In a fantasy world, I'd find a way to run new tracks west toward Ancaster (along the Linc would probably be the only realistic route)

However, that's still a long train trip, especially if you're connecting to Toronto (almost 5 km between the Linc and downtown GO Centre along the Upper James corridor; a trip along the Linc and rail trail from U. James St. east then north and into downtown is about 14 km). And most mountain-dwellers are heavy auto users who would probably rather drive to Aldershot or Burlington or maybe the new Centennial station whenever that gets fully built and served.

South of Hamilton there is very little demand for more than buses.

Best bet for "extending" regional transit in Hamilton is local rapid transit service to the GO stations. And for most routes, that will be BRT, at least initially and probably forever for some of them. There could be some regional buses connecting to the termination points of the RT lines, *IF* there's enough demand for them.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Realistically there could only be commuter rail from Brantford and Niagara to Hamilton, and even then I'm doubtful, as those services would be more likely to be focused on Toronto bound service. It would be GO service and be integrated into the GTA commuter rail network so I'm not sure it would count as a separate system anyway.

I could see commuter rail services working well in Calgary, though there hasn't been any discussions of that. Other than there, I just don't see a market for a new commuter rail service. The Ottawa proposal is a joke.

There was briefly a commuter rail service from southern Calgary to Okotoks. And some politicians have discussed a commuter rail system to Strathmore, Airdrie, Okotoks, and Cochrane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgar...#Commuter_Rail

There's also been talks of a Calgary-Banff line which is a complete no-brainer. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...erta-1.6104658

I could also see regional rail out to Drumheller (though a bus would probably be fine), down to High River and maybe all the way to Lethbridge too, and up to Crossfield, Didsbury, and Olds. Maybe something out to Bragg Creek and Turner Valley, too. Also obviously something to Edmonton and Red Deer.

Edmonton could also support commuter rail. Stony Plain/Spruce Grove and Fort Saskatchewan in particular would be well suited to it. There could also be regional rail services out to Wabamun and Jasper (an improvement of the existing VIA service by having its own dedicated track), down to Camrose, Wetaskiwin, and Ponoka. And something out to Elk Island, Mundare, and Vegreville.

In Saskatoon, I could see some commuter rail out to Martensville and Warman, maybe eventually out to Prince Albert too. But Saskatoon could probably start with BRT and maybe some trams.

Regina could have rail out to Moose Jaw, up to Lumsden and Regina Beach, and to Emerald Park and Pilot Butte.

Winnipeg I can't see commuter rail for, aside from to Lockport and Selkirk, but it really should get serious about LRT. I could also see a return of rail service up to Winnipeg Beach and Gimli, and other services out to St Anne and Steinbach. An improvement of the VIA line to Portage la Prairie and an expansion to Brandon would be good too (perhaps to eventually go all the way to Regina). A line to Stonewall and Stony Mountain and then up to Teulon would be nice and a line to Falcon Lake and Kenora would be really well used.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I know nothing of the politics wrt rail ownership and right-of-way but central Guelph and central Kitchener are only 22km apart and there's a rail line that runs direct between the two. Seems like a no-brainer down the line.

Rail service already exists between the two, but it's more accidental than deliberate on the part of Metrolinx. Since it's focused on service commuting into Toronto, it's pretty much useless in its present form (although there is limited all day service).

Much better would be if they would tweak the bus service. Most obvious would be a UW-WLU-Kitchener-Guelph Central-University of Guelph-Aberfoyle-intermediate stations?-Hamilton or West Harbour. Start at service every 2hrs. I bet it could easily support hourly service.

It would be a cold day in hell before Metrolinx would run a service that doesn't stop in the GTA, so in the meantime, they could extend the 33 to run from Kitchener GO instead.

[manny_santos]

Not sure when the Rocky Mountaineer resumed operation, but I spotted it crossing the New Westminster Railway Bridge yesterday afternoon, heading towards Vancouver. First time I've seen a passenger train cross that bridge, although I have spotted VIA's Canadian nearby.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Vancouver does have the West Coast Express but it is not even remotely the scale of GO or EXO. It is just a single line with 6 trains in/out on weekdays only. It's ridership is about 10,000 a day which hasn't budged in 20 years. The service is inconvenient and incredibly slow due to the city's poor rail infrastructure. I don't think Vancouver will ever develop an effective commuter/suburban rail system.

I think Calgary would be a good market as Airdrie is growing at a dizzing rate and the infrastructure is in place. I think a GO system serving Hamilton as it's base and not just Union would be viable. Within 40 km of Hamilton there are 2 million NOT including any of the GTA.

The game-changer the Lower Mainland needs is commuter rail to Abbotsford and Chilliwack. There are existing tracks that go directly from New Westminster to Chilliwack (passing through Newton, Cloverdale, Langley, Abbotsford, and Yarrow), but it's a very meandering route, particularly east of Langley. It would likely need to be diverted east of Langley to a new alignment, which could theoretically be along Highway 1. This could be integrated with the SkyTrain network, much as the existing West Coast Express is integrated with SkyTrain at Waterfront, Moody Centre, and Coquitlam Central Station.

[ssiguy]

Yes, the route between Vancouver and Langley is fairly direct and is needed. That however doesn't change the fact that Translink has never shown any interest in suburban rail. They tend to be focused on SkyTrain and nothing else.

It's poor policy as the further the system extends into the suburbs, the less the relative ridership. Also, SkyTrain to Langley may be nice but you are then talking an hour to get downtown. A suburban rail network with only key stations would be significantly faster.

I think a London regional system would have potential as the VIA rail is already there. Added to this is that London has no urban freeways and horrible traffic so commuter rail would actually be significantly faster than trying to drive it. The old London-Port Stanley railway is still there serving St.Thomas.

The problem for SWO is that we are back to the same old problem of CN & CP owning the track.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'll toss in a desire for regional rail service in the Saint John/Moncton/Halifax corridor.

This corridor has over a million people (over half the population of the Maritimes), and the existing trackage is well maintained. It deserves service at least several times per day.

I would try and put Fredericton into the mix too, but there are no longer any rail tracks leading to Freddy.

Starting off with a daily between Saint John and Halifax is a no brainer. Adding more would only better serve the area. Most of the old ROW of the line to Frederiction is still intact, so it could one day come back.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Yes, the route between Vancouver and Langley is fairly direct and is needed. That however doesn't change the fact that Translink has never shown any interest in suburban rail. They tend to be focused on SkyTrain and nothing else.

It's poor policy as the further the system extends into the suburbs, the less the relative ridership. Also, SkyTrain to Langley may be nice but you are then talking an hour to get downtown. A suburban rail network with only key stations would be significantly faster.

Translink will think of spending the money when it is far too late.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think Calgary would be a good market as Airdrie is growing at a dizzing rate and the infrastructure is in place.

Calgary’s first bit of regional rail is very much a legit proposal already. The city(s), province, and feds are behind it, and I believe the Stoney-Nakoda are in support too with the inclusion of a station at Morley.

The proposal as it stands has 8 regional departures per day from YYC to Banff and a express service every 20 minutes from YYC to downtown.

No solid proposal for lines to Airdrie or Okotoks yet, and Chestermere’s connection will likely be on the future CTrain Purple Line.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Starting off with a daily between Saint John and Halifax is a no brainer. Adding more would only better serve the area. Most of the old ROW of the line to Frederiction is still intact, so it could one day come back.

There's nothing between F'ton-Moncton or F'ton-Saint John to warrant service and there isn't enough demand in traffic between these cities to warrant service. Saint John-Moncton only works if it's en route to and includes Halifax and destinations in-between. Fredericton does not have destinations in-between.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Calgary’s first bit of regional rail is very much a legit proposal already. The city(s), province, and feds are behind it, and I believe the Stoney-Nakoda are in support too with the inclusion of a station at Morley.

The proposal as it stands has 8 regional departures per day from YYC to Banff and a express service every 20 minutes from YYC to downtown.

No solid proposal for lines to Airdrie or Okotoks yet, and Chestermere’s connection will likely be on the future CTrain Purple Line.

It sounds like they are trying it out before they go full out. That may be the best case with how things are out there.

Originally Posted by JHikka

There's nothing between F'ton-Moncton or F'ton-Saint John to warrant service and there isn't enough demand in traffic between these cities to warrant service. Saint John-Moncton only works if it's en route to and includes Halifax and destinations in-between. Fredericton does not have destinations in-between.

You have one of the largest bases in Canada. You would only need about 30km of new track on the old ROW. I'd say it should be worth it.