[Halifax] 22nd Commerce Square | 85 & 85 M | 24 & 20 fl | On Hold

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by alps

Hong Kong is one city which has really latched on to building pedestrian pedway and tunnel systems for the past few decades. It completely deadens the streets and eliminates all the funny informal uses of public space which makes many Asian cities so lively. It tends to make navigation very confusing. It's boring, because you end up walking through long indoor corridors rather than shop-lined streets. It's more difficult for disabled or elderly people and to make things accessible you end up relying on tons of elevators or ramps, especially in a hilly city like Halifax.

100% agree with this. I don't like pedways. Small biz on Halifax streets already struggle enough with high taxes, red tape, pro-biz park regulations, we don't also need to kill them more by trapping people indoors, away from the street.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I respect your opinion, however to me what you're describing makes a city feel colder and less inviting to people. Seems more like the sixties car-based culture that cities are moving away from - big, forboding, sterile of human activity - jump in your car and careen down the expressway as quickly as possible to get through the mess and not actually experience it on a more human basis. To me it's more of a turnoff than exciting, but of course it's a matter of opinion and preference.



While I prefer to keep original buildings intact, and incorporate the new construction around them to give a nice contrast of old and new (which in many cases makes the new building seem even more impressive), façadism serves to give the new buildings a more human scale, in my opinion - to create an inviting entrance that could serve to separate it from the business next door. In the case of retail or restaurants, it helps give them a unique identity that would tend to be lost in a series of identical glass-and-plastic new construction.



An interesting comment indeed. It seems that you are conceding that the older buildings are much nicer that the new buildings being put up behind the façade, which I would tend to agree with - style and design-wise anyway.



In my opinion, a vibrant downtown should be many things to many people:
- large towering gleaming skyscrapers to accommodate business and act as flagships for large successful corporations;
- residential buildings to give people the option of living near their work or living in an exciting and interesting area;
- retail and restaurants to serve the downtown residents and draw others in from the suburban areas to enjoy the unique downtown experience;
- arts and cultural centres;
- parks and recreational areas for the locals to enjoy and help promote a positive experience for tourism;
- etc.

To move towards a scenario where our downtown is comprised of all large, intimidating buildings with little concession to the human experience would tend to make a less functional, more sterile downtown rather than a place where people want to be, in my opinion.



I couldn't disagree more. If you've ever been inside this building, you might realize that it is an architectural treasure that is an asset to the community. Tearing it down so as to not inconvenience a developer would be criminal, IMHO.

We all have different opinions, and I respect yours, but I just can't agree with them. Sorry.

You're on a roll tonight, Mark. This whole post is thoughtful and very well put.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

100% agree with this. I don't like pedways. Small biz on Halifax streets already struggle enough with high taxes, red tape, pro-biz park regulations, we don't also need to kill them more by trapping people indoors, away from the street.

Seems to me, cf, to follow your line of thinking to its conclusion, that discouraging interior links forces people outside during extreme weather, of which Nova Scotia has more than its share. Or, more likely, keeps them inside their homes and workplaces, not out shopping and dining.

Yesterday was a fine early fall day in Halifax and the streets were full of people. I didn't see anyone "trapped" in a pedway. In fact I and others made a point of being outside when we could have used the link. Of course Halifax in a north Atlantic gale or rainstorm -- like we experienced last Sunday night -- can be a much less inviting place. Providing all-weather links between buildings does not preclude building inviting streetscapes, nor does it trap anyone, inside or outside. It does help them stay mobile in all weather conditions.

[hokus83]

So is this still moving forward at all?

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by hokus83

So is this still moving forward at all?

They are still signing new leases. I know a floor was signed for
2 years with 2 1 year options

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

They are still signing new leases. I know a floor was signed for
2 years with 2 1 year options

I don't understand these guys. They do all this promo, whine about heritage, and then shelve it. Typical Halifax development.

They'll start the project sometime in 2029 or sell to someone before.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

I don't understand these guys. They do all this promo, whine about heritage, and then shelve it. Typical Halifax development.

They'll start the project sometime in 2029 or sell to someone before.

Would you build new commercial office space with the vacancy rates where they are now?

Downtown has just gained the Waterside Centre and new space in the TD building, and will soon have the Nova Centre and the extra space in the Maritime Centre when Bell Aliant moves. 22 Commerce Square lost the race to get out of the gate first, helped in very much in part by the government's assistance in fast tracking the Nova Centre. I doubt we'll see 22 Commerce Square built in this cycle of office development.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Would you build new commercial office space with the vacancy rates where they are now?

Downtown has just gained the Waterside Centre and new space in the TD building, and will soon have the Nova Centre and the extra space in the Maritime Centre when Bell Aliant moves. 22 Commerce Square lost the race to get out of the gate first, helped in very much in part by the government's assistance in fast tracking the Nova Centre. I doubt we'll see 22 Commerce Square built in this cycle of office development.

The days of big offices may be over. The feds and provinces are no longer on a 1980s leasing binge. Large law firms and accountants don't move around much.

Expensive condos for fishing industry executives may be the next flash in the pan. The Simpsons shelled out $1,950,00 on March 6th for one of the 19th floor condos in The Trillium. Has a better view than out in Hammonds Plains.

[Drybrain]

Didn't someone say the plan is basically to shelve this for a three-five years?

There's not really enough market for all the construction happening now--as downtown picks up steam I'm hopeful that the office market will begin picking up tenants from the suburban market, but until that happens to a substantial degree, it's just too soft to support another big tower project. The vacancy rates are crazily high.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The vacancy rates are crazily high.

Vacancy rates can be misleading, because a lot of the vacancies are in older buildings that are less attractive to many tenants. New buildings like Waterside Centre have been filling up even though the old ones already have cheaper spaces.

Some of these older buildings will move down market and become a newer version of what the Roy Building was, and others will be converted to other uses. Landlords don't like this of course, since they'd rather be able to charge high rents on 50 year old offices, but it's normal in other cities too. I think it's way healthier to have a high vacancy rate and a diverse mix of buildings with positive absorption than it is to have a very low vacancy rate in a bunch of ageing buildings.

As for this particular building, it's on hold for a while.

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The days of big offices may be over. The feds and provinces are no longer on a 1980s leasing binge. Large law firms and accountants don't move around much.

Expensive condos for fishing industry executives may be the next flash in the pan. The Simpsons shelled out $1,950,00 on March 6th for one of the 19th floor condos in The Trillium. Has a better view than out in Hammonds Plains.

A Local Halifax accountant firm built a new building in Burnside just to find new space for themselves dont give anyone that rubbish on here like you even have the slightest clue what you are talking about

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by hokus83

A Local Halifax accountant firm built a new building in Burnside just to find new space for themselves dont give anyone that rubbish on here like you even have the slightest clue what you are talking about

Burnside is downtown Halifax ?
Who knew.
Burnside - taxpayer subsidised land and free parking.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Would you build new commercial office space with the vacancy rates where they are now?

Downtown has just gained the Waterside Centre and new space in the TD building, and will soon have the Nova Centre and the extra space in the Maritime Centre when Bell Aliant moves. 22 Commerce Square lost the race to get out of the gate first, helped in very much in part by the government's assistance in fast tracking the Nova Centre. I doubt we'll see 22 Commerce Square built in this cycle of office development.

As someone123 says above, vacancy rates are high for a lot of reasons.

We haven't had ANY new Class AAA office space downtown for a long, long, time. Downtown has been bleeding tenants to biz parks, where they are offering brand new office space for comparable rates.

I think companies would pay a premium to be downtown, but you can't put lipstick on a wore down, old, 1970s era office space and expect high end clients to pay high rates.

If there is high vacancy, then you need to offer nicer digs to attract tenants, and more competitive pricing. It's that simple.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The days of big offices may be over. The feds and provinces are no longer on a 1980s leasing binge. Large law firms and accountants don't move around much.

Expensive condos for fishing industry executives may be the next flash in the pan. The Simpsons shelled out $1,950,00 on March 6th for one of the 19th floor condos in The Trillium. Has a better view than out in Hammonds Plains.

PS: Once Harper is tossed from office, and we get a more sensible federal government with a better appreciate of urbanization, then I think some of these gov offices been moved to sprawlburbs will re-locate downtown again.

Harper is not forever.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

PS: Once Harper is tossed from office, and we get a more sensible federal government with a better appreciate of urbanization, then I think some of these gov offices been moved to sprawlburbs will re-locate downtown again.

Harper is not forever.

How could someone possibly make this about Harper? Get serious.

The Pierre Trudeau days of feds spending like drunken sailors are over. Only HRM does that now.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

How could someone possibly make this about Harper? Get serious.

The Pierre Trudeau days of feds spending like drunken sailors are over. Only HRM does that now.

Harper is to blame for everything : the snow, the rain, the failure to clean downtown Halifax streets and sidewalks, giving money for a library, giving a massive shipbuilding contract to metro, unsold condos, the Nova Centre, new buses, appointing corrupt Conservatives to the Senate, not appointing more corrupt Liberals to the Senate, not persuading Frank Corbett to resign in time to collect an $89,000 'transitional payment', not stopping an HRM councillor giving taxpayer money to fix a temple chimney..............

[MonctonRad]

Agreed, Harper is to blame for all of Canada's ills.

Just look at the comments on the CBC site. It makes no difference what the news article is about. It could be about a small plane crash in the Andes. As far as the comments section is concerned, somehow Harper will be to blame. It's pathetic.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

PS: Once Harper is tossed from office, and we get a more sensible federal government with a better appreciate of urbanization, then I think some of these gov offices been moved to sprawlburbs will re-locate downtown again.

Harper is not forever.

While I'm no fan of Harper, he's not the cause of Feds moving to tilt-ups in the suburbs. The Provincial Government is doing it too, as are many municipalities. It's an overall general shift in attitude from government buildings being points of civic pride to government buildings squeezing every last drop of economic efficiency.

Originally Posted by counterfactual

We haven't had ANY new Class AAA office space downtown for a long, long, time. Downtown has been bleeding tenants to biz parks, where they are offering brand new office space for comparable rates.

I think companies would pay a premium to be downtown, but you can't put lipstick on a wore down, old, 1970s era office space and expect high end clients to pay high rates.

I absolutely agree with you. However, DT has just seen/is seeing a huge flood of new AAA office space construction and also some renovations to bring up the quality of a few existing buildings. Most or all of the leases that were expiring for banks and other AAA-type companies have now been accounted for. 22 Commerce Square was too late and missed the boat. I doubt we'll see anything happen on that site until the next round of major lease expiries.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

How could someone possibly make this about Harper? Get serious.

The Pierre Trudeau days of feds spending like drunken sailors are over. Only HRM does that now.

You are absolutely right, dredging up Harper as the reason for suburban sprawl is creating a bogeyman. I too get frustrated over how various political leaders, including Harper, get blamed for everything from acne to the cost of bread in Burma.

It is much like dredging up PET as a partisan bogeyman for fiscal irresponsibility, while ignoring Mulroney, who created debt levels that PET could only dream of. But that's ok, because he wasn't a pinko commie, so its allowable right?

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

How could someone possibly make this about Harper? Get serious.

The Pierre Trudeau days of feds spending like drunken sailors are over. Only HRM does that now.

Originally Posted by Colin May

Harper is to blame for everything : the snow, the rain, the failure to clean downtown Halifax streets and sidewalks, giving money for a library, giving a massive shipbuilding contract to metro, unsold condos, the Nova Centre, new buses, appointing corrupt Conservatives to the Senate, not appointing more corrupt Liberals to the Senate, not persuading Frank Corbett to resign in time to collect an $89,000 'transitional payment', not stopping an HRM councillor giving taxpayer money to fix a temple chimney..............

Oh look! I managed to make Colin and Keith agree on something. Who would have thought there were both closet Harper supporters.

And not they only agree, they both make arguments through over-the-top hyperbole, managing to successfully topple a big teetering strawman argument that no one was actually making.

Keith: Nice straw man, but no. For anyone paying attention to what the Feds have been doing lately, how could someone *not* make the argument I made about Harper? You might recall there was a guy named Jean Chretien who served as PM for, oh just a few years, after Trudeau. And in those many years, federal departments stayed downtown while balancing budgets in every year. Harper, who has run deficits in every year has been panicking, and selling off federal buildings and land nationally and internationally, trying to squeeze every last dollar out of the budget, so they can balance it while also sustaining their income-split tax give away.

Colin: Nice strawman, but no. See above. If you think it's a coincidence that multiple federal departments have vacated the core under Harper's watch, then you're also not paying attention. You like directing people to the Provincial Property Register. I'll direct you to the Federal Treasury Property & Procurement Records.

Just because our Provincial and Municiple Governments are likewise idiotic in moving services to suburbs, doesn't mean we can't also point out a difference of policy under this Federal Government compared to previous.