Great Lakes Cities

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'm not one to judge, but every time Cincinnati chili is brought up I google it to see if maybe it's not what I remember. Every time I'm still thoroughly disgusted...

I fear that amount of shredded cheese may actually kill me on the spot.

I've been eating Cincinnati chili (Skyline and Camp Washington) all my life, but I'm only 37 so...

I'm a bit surprised there's people who haven't heard of Nashville Hot Chicken. Any place with a decent chicken and waffles restaurant in the west/southwest usually has a variation of it on their menu.

Also, blasphemy I guess, but I prefer Chicago tavern-style thin crust to deep dish.

[benp]

Here is my best shot at a contiguously walkable area of Buffalo:


Contiguous Walkable by bpawlik, on Flickr

Roughly about 20 sq miles as I left cutouts for the big box/industry area in North Buffalo and parts of Forest Lawn/Delaware Park. I stopped North and East, extending into the dense suburban communities, mainly because it gets more spread-out suburban at those points. I could have included more of the Bailey-Kensington area, but it probably all evens out. There is also a railroad corridor through much of Black Rock, but it does get traversed by many roads and bridges, so that probably deserves another cutout of less than 1 sq mile.

Some gaps in prior years are now filling, like much of the West Side and Black Rock that was industrial is now being converted or filled with apartments, retail shops, and bike lanes where just 5 years ago it was a wasteland. Ditto for areas near downtown to the East, which is probably only a couple of years away from continuously connecting downtown to Larkinville and the Old First Ward, and an expanding and gentrifying Fruit Belt neighborhood near the Medical Center.

The already walkable neighborhoods on the East and South Sides will likely remain isolated from the mapped areas for the foreseeable future, although their own walkability has been improving in the last couple of years.

Here is suburban Kenmore, part of the 20 sq miles:
https://goo.gl/maps/JvHgiQK5XUrVzrwQ6

Bailey Avenue on the East Side - a little worse for wear, but walkable:
https://goo.gl/maps/csK2FvXpTNjgY1MMA

I may have stretched it a little too far in the SE, though. Its less dense than I remembered it, so can lose that corner triangle for now, although it is infilling.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

They still would've needed a canal to get around the rapids. The Seaway wasn't opened until the 50's. There's also no point really in shipping something to Montreal when the majority of the population is further south. People need economic reasons to move somewhere, and if Canada and the U.S. were all under the same immigration laws in the 19th & 20th centuries, there wouldn't really be much reason to go north of the Great Lakes except for small farming communities and resource extraction. Montreal (and then Toronto) developed a sizeable economy by housing Canadian banks that financed Canadian mining operations, Canadian railways, manufacturing, etc. If they were all one country these activities probably would've just been absorbed by the larger established centres in Chicago and New York.

Yes, they'd still need a canal, but the first one (old Weiland Canal) was built only four years after the Erie Canal - and much more cheaply (the Erie Canal was the longest canal system in the world at that time). I do think that ultimately both a Weiland Canal and an Erie Canal would be built, but the first might happen a bit earlier - and the other a bit later.

The big advantage in this scenario that Montreal would have over NYC is basically distance. Montreal, being further north/east, would be a bit closer to Europe, which would cut down on shipping costs for any exports. Over time, this could cause manufactured goods involving American products to be finished there. For example, the textile industry was focused in Manhattan in large part because the Erie Canal (and other canals connecting the Mississippi to the Great Lakes) allowed for cotton to be dropped off there and be finished in local mills. But with Quebec part of the U.S. some of those mills might locate instead in Montreal.

I don't disagree though that Ontario and points west would be far less populated than they were in reality - with the possible exception of British Columbia, which has a genuinely good climate.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know what would have happened in Ontario (which relied heavily on immigration for its population growth during that era) but I am pretty sure the revenge of the cradle (la revanche des berceaux) would have happened in Quebec anyway.

This was a fairly long period where French Canadians had an extremely high birth rate. According to legend it was one of the highest ever recorded in modern times.

So regardless, it's likely Quebec would have had a pretty substantial population anyway.

Though how many would have stayed in Quebec is another good question.

Even with the border, it's estimated that just under half of Quebec's population moved to the US in latter part of the 1800s and the first part of the 1900s.

In this scenario *Ontario may have become majority Francophone actually, provided not many (other) Americans wanted to move into the region.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by benp

Here is my best shot at a contiguously walkable area of Buffalo:


Contiguous Walkable by bpawlik, on Flickr

Roughly about 20 sq miles...

much more detailed than my hastily assembled map

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

not only that, but wood-frame structures tend to deteriorate a lot faster than true masonry structures when they enter prolonged periods of deferred maintenance. sure, brick structures need maintenance as well with periodic tuckpointings and roof repair, but in general, it seems like a brick structure typically ends up in better shape after 2 decades or so of no one touching it than your typical wood-frame house with siding.

A brick structure can be abandoned for up to 50 years and be brought back. In contrast, a wood home begins to rot if it hasn't been painted in more than 10 years.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i believe i mentioned this before, but chicago was one of the exceptions to the above because of the city's fire-paranoia influenced building code. traditional 3-wythe brick flats and bungalows were still being built here into the 50's/60s, when brick veneer with CMU backing (not wood-frame) starting taking over due to costs.

It's interesting to me how fire codes caused so much of the historic vernacular of the U.S. I mean, fire codes caused the Philly rowhouse (wood homes were banned outright) and New Orleans' French Quarter (it was believed attached homes would make firefighting easier, and everything was brick or stucco to cut down on fire risk).

I guess San Francisco is a case where the earthquake shaped the vernacular (abandoning brick).

[The North One]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

That strip we're talking about is all prewar though. 90% of the what's there today was there in 1940, with some infill and some newer density added on the peripheral streets north and south. I was using Queen West as an example to point out the Toronto's advantage is that all GL cities probably had similar corridors before the 50's but Toronto maintained the vast majority of what it had.

I think a good analogy is that Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo's pre war stock is like a mountain range with high peaks and wide valleys between. Very grand where it exists, some of the best masonry skyscrapers in the world, but also large gaps and holes where things fell apart post-war. Toronto's pre war fabric is miles wide and an inch deep. Less grandeur at the peaks, but consistently solid across the city.

I feel like that's a generally fair assessment. Toronto cannot hope to compete with the peaks in the older cities around it and it shows, but it is definitively more contiguous.

The thing is though when it comes Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo all they really need is infill development to reconnect corridors. And they've been getting damn good infill at an accelerating pace lately.

[BnaBreaker]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

...what is Nashville Hot Chicken? lol

It's breaded chicken fried with a spicy breading mixture, but there are a lot of spicy fried chickens out there. What really makes it Nashville style hot chicken is that after it comes out of the fryer, it is dunked into some sort of spicy chili oil and served with a pickled vegetable of some sort. That's what it is supposed to be anyway... a lot of imitators out there though. To me it is something that actually has a lot in common with East Asian street food. I feel like if the word "Nashville" was removed from the name, you wouldn't bat an eye finding it in a street food stall in Seoul or Kuala Lumpur. It has been a thing in Nashville for probably sixty years or so... glad to see it finally catching on elsewhere too because, I mean, who doesn't like a good piece of chicken? Actually in Nashville you could find Nashville hot fish (usually catfish) as well which, in my opinion, is even better.

[Steely Dan]

Nashville hot chicken has been a thing in Chicago for a while now (I live a block away from one of the best local purveyors of the style). I'm a bit surprised that someone living in NYC has never heard of it.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Columbus definitely wins in its weight class with High Street. start here and navigate downtown:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lu...!4d-83.0070516

Buffalo's Elmwood is on a smaller scale but still impressive

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ji...!4d-78.8773146

Woodward is really not much of a candidate. this area is a valiant effort though

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3517...7i16384!8i8192

not too familiar with Milwaukee, whats the equivalent of High/Woodward/Elmwood over there?

Street-views are usually dated by a year or so. Most of Woodward's major holes are either being filled right now (Woodward West under construction) or about to be with high-rise proposals (The Mid, City Club apartments, etc.), all mixed use. I don't think Woodward is that far off from High Street even right now, but it's about to be a clear winner very soon here.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I've been eating Cincinnati chili (Skyline and Camp Washington) all my life, but I'm only 37 so...

I'm a bit surprised there's people who haven't heard of Nashville Hot Chicken. Any place with a decent chicken and waffles restaurant in the west/southwest usually has a variation of it on their menu.

Also, blasphemy I guess, but I prefer Chicago tavern-style thin crust to deep dish.

Isn't Cincy chile often served over spaghetti or sometimes fries? Good quick & cheap meal.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Wigs

much more detailed than my hastily assembled map

Is all of the area safe to walk in, crime light? I have mentioned here before that if I moved to a GL city, it would probably be either Buffalo or Cleveland. Good property values and B's proximity to Toronto is a plus. Has the Love Canal area been cleaned up? Where is Love Canal relative to Buffalo and Niagara Falls? Is Niagara Falls NY coming back?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

Isn't Cincy chile often served over spaghetti or sometimes fries? Good quick & cheap meal.

The traditional way is over spaghetti:

Three-way: chili, noodles, shredded cheddar
Four-way: chili, noodles, shredded cheddar + chopped onions
Five-way: chili, noodles, shredded cheddar, chopped onions + beans


I'm a five-way guy.


You can also get served over a hot dog coney style.

[benp]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

Is all of the area safe to walk in, crime light? I have mentioned here before that if I moved to a GL city, it would probably be either Buffalo or Cleveland. Good property values and B's proximity to Toronto is a plus. Has the Love Canal area been cleaned up? Where is Love Canal relative to Buffalo and Niagara Falls? Is Niagara Falls NY coming back?

Of the area I highlighted on the map, the only area I might be concerned about today is the Bailey Avenue section. It is a poorer minority-majority part of town, and there were some issues there last year. During the day it should be no problem, however, but if it makes a difference to you it is a majority black neighborhood, and parts of nearby Bailey (just south of the highlighted area) has become the popular "urban" shopping district and for locals cruising and showing off their tricked-out vehicles.

Otherwise, most of the highlighted area is generally safe with typical minor city crimes (checking for open car doors, minor vandalism, shoplifting, late night drunks, bar fights, etc). No homeless on the streets, no urine smells downtown, few people asking for change, rarely an occasional "yelling man," etc.

Love Canal is about 10 miles north of Buffalo in Niagara Falls, and is still capped and closed off. Love Canal not an issue for Buffalo, but there are other superfund sites in and around the area, including some nuclear waste and storage sites in Tonawanda, Niagara County, and in Southern Erie County. Because of the areas industrial history, every new development requires brownfield remediation by the state.

Niagara Falls has not fully turned the corner for residential improvements yet, still waiting.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

Is all of the area safe to walk in, crime light? I have mentioned here before that if I moved to a GL city, it would probably be either Buffalo or Cleveland. Good property values and B's proximity to Toronto is a plus. Has the Love Canal area been cleaned up? Where is Love Canal relative to Buffalo and Niagara Falls? Is Niagara Falls NY coming back?

Choose Buffalo, you won't regret it. The best endorsement of all time is from Anthony Bourdain



Forgot to mention Bourdain's Russian sidekick, Zamir Gotta, loved his Buffalo adventure with Anthony so much that he now lives in Western NY. He even has his own vodka partnering with a regional distillery.


edit: If anyone has Instagram, check out the account: buffalohomes
They've done an excellent job photographing the housing stock in the city.
even bougie forumers like destroycreate would be impressed!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Choose Buffalo, you won't regret it. The best endorsement of all time is from Anthony Bourdain

Speaking of Bourdain, he seemed to have an affinity for the hard-nosed authenticity of rust-belt cities.


He freaking loved Chicago:

“You wake up in Chicago, pull back the curtain, and you KNOW where you are. You could be nowhere else. You are in a big, brash, muscular, broad shouldered motherfuckin’ city. A metropolis, completely non-neurotic, ever-moving, big hearted but cold blooded machine with millions of moving parts — a beast that will, if disrespected or not taken seriously, roll over you without remorse.”

“Chicago is big — not just any kind of big — I’m talking major metropolis big. I love this city. In my opinion, it’s the only other real metropolis in America.”

“It is, also, as I like to point out frequently, one of America’s last great NO BULLSHIT zones. Pomposity, pretentiousness, putting on airs of any kind, douchery and lack of a sense of humor will not get you far in Chicago. It is a trait shared with Glasgow — another city I love with a similar working class ethos and history.”

- Anthony Bourdain

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Speaking of Bourdain, he seemed to have an affinity for the hard-nosed authenticity of rust-belt cities.



He freaking loved Chicago:

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by eschaton

In this scenario *Ontario may have become majority Francophone actually, provided not many (other) Americans wanted to move into the region.

Ontario might not even exist as a separate entity from Quebec under this scenario.

Originally, it and what later became Quebec were part of the same entity which was simply known as Canada. Then as the population of the western part of the then-Canada grew due to immigration from Britain, a decision was made to split it off from the predominantly French territory (present-day Quebec) to the east.

In the absence of a geo-political impetus for an influx of British settlers into what it today Ontario (squeezed in between French Quebec and the US border), it's highly possible it would just be another region of whatever became of Quebec.

Of course we don't know what the US would have done with the "French" issue.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Bourdain loved Detroit too:

"Detroit looks like nowhere else. Detroit looks like motherfuckin' Detroit. As it should.

I'll say it again. And again.

I love Detroit. I love Detroiters. You've got to have a sense of humor to live in a city so relentlessly fucked. You've got to be tough -- and occasionally even devious. And Detroiters are funny, tough -- and supreme improvisers.

They are also among the best and most fun drinkers in the country."


"Detroit isn't just a national treasure. It IS America. And wherever you may live, you wouldn't be there -- and wouldn't be who you are in the same way -- without Detroit"

- Anthony Bourdain

[Steely Dan]

Bourdain had some solid Cleveland praise too:

"I love Cleveland. It's one of my favorite American cities. There's something very majestic about it: the architecture, the outsized vision of its dreams and builders, and its run-down state. I find that very compelling, a place where I WANT to go. It's a very quirky place, and if there's one thing I love, it's quirkiness.

If you live in Cleveland and love Cleveland, I think you're a person I'll get along with."

- Anthony Bourdain




So, Bourdain was a great laker at heart.

Despite its myriad warts, it's a good region.

And he was right to like its cities and its people.

[shappy]

Originally Posted by edale

Wow, I just took a streetview tour of Queen West, and it's a pretty damn impressive urban corridor. I think you Toronto forumers are being far too gracious in response to some of these claims.

It's generally how we roll. This is too perfect:

• Video Link