Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[RC14]

I can't think of any. Austin maybe?
For a US city, Salt Lake punches above it's weight when it comes to transit.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by i-215

I can't imagine Utah is totally unique.

Are there other "red" metros/states which are aggressively chasing mass transit expansion like Utah is?

Houston and Dallas both come to mind but closer to SLC is Phoenix, since I live here I know more about it. The City of Phoenix hasn't been red in a long time but metro has as well as the state, although AZ and the PHX metro is trending more blue now. Aggressive mass transit has been and continues to push forward down here.

Valley Metro in the Phoenix-Mesa-Tempe area has built the most and remains by far the most aggressive but Tucson did open rail in 2014 as well.

- 2008, 20 mile initial LRT line begins service
- 2013, SkyHarbor SkyTrain initial 2.1 miles opens
- 2014, 4 mile Street Car opens in Tucson
- 2015, LRT 3.1-mile Central Mesa Extension opens
- 2016, LRT Northwest Phase I, a 3.2-mile route opens
- 2021, 3 mile phase I Tempe streetcar will open
- 2022, Phase 2 of SkyTrain will open adding 2.5 more miles, rental car connect
- 2023, LRT South Central Extension/Downtown Hub 5.5 mile route opens
- 2024, Northwest Phase II, an additional 2 miles to the main LRT line
- 2024, Capitol/I-10 West Extension Phase I, 4ish miles
- 2030, Capital/I-10 West Phase II, 7ish miles
- 2030+, Northeast Expansion, ASU West, Tempe/Mesa street car

[Hatman]

North Carolina is a pretty republican state (less so than Utah, based on the presidential election, but still went R in the end). They have a growing transit network in Charlotte that is based on an excellent light rail line, a pretty mediocre streetcar line, and a state-supported Amtrak train that has multiple departures to Raleigh. The new intermodal center in Raleigh is a fantastic new train station, and another new train station is scheduled to be built in Charlotte in a few years. That station will cost $800 million, which is even more than what I estimate the Rio Grande Depot plan will cost (total cost - I still maintain it will be self-funding through the property development).
So we're definitely not the lone conservative state with transit ambitions. We may not even be the most ambitious.

[Hatman]

Here is something I had fun drawing up:


Obviously I've spent too much time on r/imaginary maps. But I don't think this is so unreasonable. Amtrak long distance trains operate at ~90% self-sufficiency, so state subsidies would be relatively small once the service is actually established.

The idea came from arguments I had concerning the Rio Grande Plan, about how the plan would reduce the ability to service passenger trains in Salt Lake City (ie, clean, fuel, take out of service, enter service, etc.). My counter is always that trains should not have Salt Lake City as their end station, as Utah's geography is arranged in such a way that trains should begin or end their routes in either Provo or Ogden.
The California Zephyr, for example, should be rerouted to stop at Ogden. The long stop to refuel the engines and change train crews should happen in Ogden. Salt Lake would be just another short stop along the way.

These new passenger trains would run on Union Pacific tracks and would obviate the need for any express FrontRunner service. The schedules would be built in such a way that trains departing from Utah would handle the morning rush hour into Salt Lake, and trains arriving in Utah would arrive in time for the evening rush hour. That is the beauty of a 9 hour long schedule - it matches the work day schedule for people downtown.

For a similar service that exists today, check out the Amtrak San Juaquin service in California's Central Valley. Those trains connect cities of medium density (Sacramento to Bakersfield) in about 6 hours, and have 3 departures per day in each direction. They are also going to use the same train set I have pictured in the map (basically a Brightline consist with one locomotive):


I've designed my network so that there are big(ish) cities on both ends of the line. This way the trains will double their utility. Some people might ride all the way from Salt Lake City to Boise (about 8 hours), but most passengers will not. As the train leaves Salt Lake City, the train will get emptier as people get off in Pocatello and Twin Falls. But at those same cities, more passengers will get on for travel to Boise, the the train will carry roughly the same number of passengers throughout its length.

This was mostly just to prove a point - that the Rio Grande Depot plan does not limit future rail service to Salt Lake City. I think it also shows that there is a much better alternative to FrontRunner express service. A system like this is probably a 'stretch goal' for our region, but I think that - if it could be built - it would be a pretty popular service.
Thoughts?

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Hatman

North Carolina is a pretty republican state (less so than Utah, based on the presidential election, but still went R in the end). They have a growing transit network in Charlotte that is based on an excellent light rail line, a pretty mediocre streetcar line, and a state-supported Amtrak train that has multiple departures to Raleigh. The new intermodal center in Raleigh is a fantastic new train station, and another new train station is scheduled to be built in Charlotte in a few years. That station will cost $800 million, which is even more than what I estimate the Rio Grande Depot plan will cost (total cost - I still maintain it will be self-funding through the property development).
So we're definitely not the lone conservative state with transit ambitions. We may not even be the most ambitious.

Does Raleigh/Durham have any mass transit like light rail or street car or anything proposed?

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Does Raleigh/Durham have any mass transit like light rail or street car or anything proposed?

Mostly bus improvements, though they also want 20 miles of BRT. If that is 20 miles of exclusive bus lanes, that is more than all of UTA's exclusive lanes combined. (UVX is 12 miles long, with only 6 of those miles in exclusive lanes. Ogden BRT will have less than 3 miles of exclusive lanes, and the 35M in Magna isn't even using its 2 miles of lanes at the moment).

Commuter rail is also in the plans, between Raleigh and Durham. They want a frequency of 8 trains per hour, which is a train every 7.5 minutes. That's twice what we have as our goal for our commuter rail in Utah. Heck, that's twice as often as our Light Rail! The only thing UTA has in its favor is that the Raleigh version will be using freight tracks, so they won't offer service all day. Only morning and evening peaks, with some mid day service at lunch time.

(For the record, I won't be happy until TRAX runs every 5 minutes, and FrontRunner runs every 10, but I'm somewhat of a radical.)

Here is my source:
https://goforwardnc.org/county/wake-county/the-plan/

Also, I highly recommend checking out the Raleigh Union Station project. It's pretty clear to me that much of UTA's planning around Salt Lake Central Station is based off of the Raleigh station. Which wouldn't be awful, TBH - just not as good as the Rio Grande depot.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Here is something I had fun drawing up:


Obviously I've spent too much time on r/imaginary maps. But I don't think this is so unreasonable. Amtrak long distance trains operate at ~90% self-sufficiency, so state subsidies would be relatively small once the service is actually established.

The idea came from arguments I had concerning the Rio Grande Plan, about how the plan would reduce the ability to service passenger trains in Salt Lake City (ie, clean, fuel, take out of service, enter service, etc.). My counter is always that trains should not have Salt Lake City as their end station, as Utah's geography is arranged in such a way that trains should begin or end their routes in either Provo or Ogden.
The California Zephyr, for example, should be rerouted to stop at Ogden. The long stop to refuel the engines and change train crews should happen in Ogden. Salt Lake would be just another short stop along the way.

These new passenger trains would run on Union Pacific tracks and would obviate the need for any express FrontRunner service. The schedules would be built in such a way that trains departing from Utah would handle the morning rush hour into Salt Lake, and trains arriving in Utah would arrive in time for the evening rush hour. That is the beauty of a 9 hour long schedule - it matches the work day schedule for people downtown.

For a similar service that exists today, check out the Amtrak San Juaquin service in California's Central Valley. Those trains connect cities of medium density (Sacramento to Bakersfield) in about 6 hours, and have 3 departures per day in each direction. They are also going to use the same train set I have pictured in the map (basically a Brightline consist with one locomotive):


I've designed my network so that there are big(ish) cities on both ends of the line. This way the trains will double their utility. Some people might ride all the way from Salt Lake City to Boise (about 8 hours), but most passengers will not. As the train leaves Salt Lake City, the train will get emptier as people get off in Pocatello and Twin Falls. But at those same cities, more passengers will get on for travel to Boise, the the train will carry roughly the same number of passengers throughout its length.

This was mostly just to prove a point - that the Rio Grande Depot plan does not limit future rail service to Salt Lake City. I think it also shows that there is a much better alternative to FrontRunner express service. A system like this is probably a 'stretch goal' for our region, but I think that - if it could be built - it would be a pretty popular service.
Thoughts?

That's awesome, I'd like to see an intermountain version too connecting SLC, Denver, Vegas, and Phoenix. I find it pretty odd that Phoenix and SLC don't even have a direct interstate connection.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by locolife

That's awesome, I'd like to see an intermountain version too connecting SLC, Denver, Vegas, and Phoenix. I find it pretty odd that Phoenix and SLC don't even have a direct interstate connection.

There's this funny little thing called the Grand Canyon between Salt Lake City and Phoenix, which makes construction of railroads and freeways (or any roads, really) a tad difficult.

I-11, between Las Vegas and Phoenix will mostly fix this problem, and if the rumor mill is correct, Brightline has plans to connect Las Vegas and Phoenix by a second High Speed Rail route, which will solve the rail issue too.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Hatman

There's this funny little thing called the Grand Canyon between Salt Lake City and Phoenix, which makes construction of railroads and freeways (or any roads, really) a tad difficult.

I-11, between Las Vegas and Phoenix will mostly fix this problem, and if the rumor mill is correct, Brightline has plans to connect Las Vegas and Phoenix by a second High Speed Rail route, which will solve the rail issue too.

As the crow flies the shortest distance goes just to the eastern side of the grand canyon and is 508 miles. Currently the shortest distance driving is I-17 to Flagstaff, then 89 to 20 to I-15 at 660 miles. If you could stay generally North from Page cutting between Bryce Canyon and Grand Staircase Escalante I'm wondering if you couldn't shave off almost 70-100 miles?

Not sure but I thought all of this was mainly "dreaming big" so thought I'd throw mine in too.

[Hatman]

You're right on, this is a place to dream big. And also to discuss reasoning and tradeoffs, but mostly to dream.

Another route that isn't connected by freeway is US-6 over Soldier Summit. It would be massively expensive, but it already has the traffic demand warranting an upgrade.

[RC14]

^
This needs to happen. I hate driving Highway 6. Two lane highway (south of Price) with the traffic of an interstate. It's not safe.

[Hatman]

Haha, I guess my new approach to transit funding is going to be pure quid pro quo: for every new freeway, we also have to get 1 new transit mega project. You want to upgrade US-6? Then you need to build my train to Moab!
If this happens, I'll become the biggest pro-freeway booster this transit thread has ever seen!

[RC14]

I find those terms agreeable. Although, I might prefer Rio Grande plan + Hwy 6 conversion.

[Atlas]

Sounds like Hatman might get to present his Rio Grande Plan to Nick Norris and the SLC planning department

Keep us in the loop!

[Hatman]

Yes, arrangements are being made for some sort of presentation to the City Planning Division, sometime within the next few weeks. So at the very least, the Rio Grande Plan will get a fair shake from the professionals. My biggest fear was that it would die in obscurity without ever getting seen by a real decision maker - at least now I know that won't happen.

I honestly can't believe how influential that 1 reddit post was. Pro-tip: If you want to get your ideas out to the masses, use Reddit. Within a day of posting I was already getting contacted by influential people.

This doesn't mean the work is done yet, though. I've submitted the plan to the City Council directly and to the Mayor's office, the Pioneer Park Coalition, and a private developer who is a family friend. And I'll keep going, whenever I have the time. The idea is to get the idea out there and start building popular support for the Rio Grande Plan. If you know someone who is interested, please feel free to share the plan (linked in my signature line). The more people know about this plan and agree with it, the better the odds of success. For instance, the plan may come down to a referendum vote. I don't know how likely that is, but it might. And if it does, we will need to educate the entire public about the benefits of the Rio Grande Plan, not just that an old train station would get used again.
So now we'll see how well this plan transitions from private fantasy to public opinion.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Brightline has plans to connect Las Vegas and Phoenix by a second High Speed Rail route, which will solve the rail issue too.

I feel like I'll have gray hair before the LA-to-Vegas speedy rail every actually gets built. I'm hopeful for the most recent iteration -- but to be fair, I've been hopeful for the last 2 and they went no place.

Option B: I understand San Bernardino county having little interest in spending precious transportation dollars modernizing I-15. But a clever way to fund it would be a reversible HOT lane in the median (outbound Friday; inbound Sunday). Toll revenue could pay for improvements and move traffic out of general purpose lanes. Honestly, there were days (pre-pandemic) when I'd have gladly paid $35 to just get home.

[bob rulz]

Congratulations Hatman! It's a very good proposal and I'm very happy that it made its way into the right hands for consideration. That is awesome and I'll do my best to spread the word.

[downtownslcresident]

Hey Hatman! I'm a huge fan of your proposal, and I truly hope it gets implemented. I think it would be one of the single biggest and best projects to ever happen to Salt Lake City if it does.

But I'm curious if you have a plan for the businesses along the existing lines that use the existing tracks on a regular basis, some daily. For example, Mountain Cement on the corner of 8th south and 6th west, and the cereal food processor on 5th south and 4th west.

[Hatman]

An excellent question!
In reality, the Rio Grande Plan will take a very long time to implement - and even when work begins, it doesn't mean that things are going to have to be cleared out all at once. I wouldn't be surprised if some railroad tracks remain on the south end of the old railroad yard site for years after the mainline is diverted, so that the local small industries can be serviced.
Over time, these businesses will either change their logistics patterns, move to a newer, more efficient site on the west end of town (one of the many rail-served industrial parks over there), or unfortunately call it quits. Rising property values as urban development creeps into the area will make it very tempting for a lot of these businesses to cash out and relocate.
An example is the Cereal Food Processors plant at 500 south and 400 West. This complex used to be serviced by weekly grain deliveries by rail. UTA tried their darndest to buy out their rail spur so that there would be one less reason to have freight tracks crossing the UTA tracks, but to no avail. The processor stayed open and the FrontRunner tracks needed to be built around the yard tracks for the processing plant.
Fast forward to today and the plant is now closed, the rail spur between the plant and the yard has been covered in asphalt, and the yard is mostly empty space that Frontrunner detours around for not good reason.

So my plan is just to give it time, let the businesses adapt to the new situation, and then snap up their land when they are ready to sell. Nothing needs to be done quickly with this plan, nobody's feelings need to be hurt or life's work destroyed.

That's how it will work in theory. We'll see if it ever gets the chance to work in real life.

[New_Future_Mayor]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Mostly bus improvements, though they also want 20 miles of BRT. If that is 20 miles of exclusive bus lanes, that is more than all of UTA's exclusive lanes combined. (UVX is 12 miles long, with only 6 of those miles in exclusive lanes. Ogden BRT will have less than 3 miles of exclusive lanes, and the 35M in Magna isn't even using its 2 miles of lanes at the moment).

Commuter rail is also in the plans, between Raleigh and Durham. They want a frequency of 8 trains per hour, which is a train every 7.5 minutes. That's twice what we have as our goal for our commuter rail in Utah. Heck, that's twice as often as our Light Rail! The only thing UTA has in its favor is that the Raleigh version will be using freight tracks, so they won't offer service all day. Only morning and evening peaks, with some mid day service at lunch time.

(For the record, I won't be happy until TRAX runs every 5 minutes, and FrontRunner runs every 10, but I'm somewhat of a radical.)

Here is my source:
https://goforwardnc.org/county/wake-county/the-plan/

Also, I highly recommend checking out the Raleigh Union Station project. It's pretty clear to me that much of UTA's planning around Salt Lake Central Station is based off of the Raleigh station. Which wouldn't be awful, TBH - just not as good as the Rio Grande depot.

The problem with the 35M all along was that their dedicated lanes were in the middle of 6-8 lanes of traffic. The exclusive lanes should have reduced a land in each direction, not added more width the the street. Another issue is that it doesn't serve dense populations along the route.