St. Pauls at the Jim Pattison Medical Centre | U/C

[Changing City]

On the City Clerk's twitter feed "City Council approves Rezoning at 1002 Station Street and 250-310 Prior Street (New St. Paul’s Hospital and Health Campus) with amendments."

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

We've seen (in the Sun article linked to again up page) that this site was picked up at a bargain basement price of $24m by an independent group with a view to moving the hospital here. It's (just) big enough to develop a replacement. Providence Healthcare have known about the ground conditions for years, and have planned for it accordingly within a budget that they've managed to put together.

You obviously know Downtown and the surrounding area really well. What other site could they have built a replacement hospital on, and how much more do you think it would cost?

I would pick the Molson brewery site for three or four 30+ storey hospital buildings that contain wards and offices, complete with a couple of helipads on top. All the towers would be linked by a 8-storey podium building. Between the towers would be sky bridges at various floors criss-crossing the complex.

There, that's my vision of a nice new hospital to replace St Paul's: nice solid ground right next to downtown, and easy flight access since it is relatively close to the waters.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

I would pick the Molson brewery site for three or four 30+ storey hospital buildings that contain wards and offices, complete with a couple of helipads on top. All the towers would be linked by a 8-storey podium building. Between the towers would be sky bridges at various floors criss-crossing the complex.

There, that's my vision of a nice new hospital to replace St Paul's: nice solid ground right next to downtown, and easy flight access since it is relatively close to the waters.

Well, an interesting choice, and probably the only other large(ish) piece of land (although it wasn't available when Providence started planning the replacement for St Paul's). It's quite a distance from the DTES and the northern part of Downtown, so coverage would overlap, rather than compliment VGH. It sold for $185 million, so well over $150 million more expensive than the Station Street site. It's only a third of the area, so squeezing the hospital on would be much more difficult (and expensive). The hospital couldn't use any adjacent land for hotel, office etc. - that would have to involve tearing down existing buildings nearby.

[Feathered Friend]

Votes against the new hospital were Carr, Fry and Hardwick. All others were in favour.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Well, an interesting choice, and probably the only other large(ish) piece of land (although it wasn't available when Providence started planning the replacement for St Paul's). It's quite a distance from the DTES and the northern part of Downtown, so coverage would overlap, rather than compliment VGH. It sold for $185 million, so well over $150 million more expensive than the Station Street site. It's only a third of the area, so squeezing the hospital on would be much more difficult (and expensive). The hospital couldn't use any adjacent land for hotel, office etc. - that would have to involve tearing down existing buildings nearby.

Only way for the hospital to do well at the Molson site is if they can go tall. Also, the foundation work to make the entire hospital campus seismically sound at the Station Street would have offset any initial savings attained. A floodplain is never a good idea to have a hospital built IMO.

Another alternative is to have the hospital remain at the original site. Just build a tall tower and upgrade the heritage portion. It may be smaller but at least everyone acknowledges that that is the perfect location to serve the downtown population: it is smack in the centre of the densest population district in the entire Lower Mainland. The gas station lands could also be purchased for other tall hospital campus buildings to be built there.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Only way for the hospital to do well at the Molson site is if they can go tall. Also, the foundation work to make the entire hospital campus seismically sound at the Station Street would have offset any initial savings attained. A floodplain is never a good idea to have a hospital built IMO.

Another alternative is to have the hospital remain at the original site. Just build a tall tower and upgrade the heritage portion. It may be smaller but at least everyone acknowledges that that is the perfect location to serve the downtown population: it is smack in the centre of the densest population district in the entire Lower Mainland. The gas station lands could also be purchased for other tall hospital campus buildings to be built there.

When the decision was taken to find a new site, Molson's wasn't an option. It's smaller than the existing St Paul's site. There were several detailed studies that looked at redeveloping on the existing site. It was more expensive, less efficient and would take much longer. So they went with the cheaper site where they could fit everything into one big programme, then move in a single operation. None of the site conditions - including the elevation - are significantly costlier. They're digging holes for parking underneath anyway.

But that's all been rehearsed here, and you don't agree with the decision they made. As it was rezoned today, with luck they'll now submit the detailed plans and get building.

[Vin]

Hot off the press.....

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/new-...r-city-council

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Changing City

When the decision was taken to find a new site, Molson's wasn't an option. It's smaller than the existing St Paul's site. There were several detailed studies that looked at redeveloping on the existing site. It was more expensive, less efficient and would take much longer. So they went with the cheaper site where they could fit everything into one big programme, then move in a single operation. None of the site conditions - including the elevation - are significantly costlier. They're digging holes for parking underneath anyway.

But that's all been rehearsed here, and you don't agree with the decision they made. As it was rezoned today, with luck they'll now submit the detailed plans and get building.

Don't forget the hospital needs to be fat more than it needs to be wide; as Feathered noted, they require one big interconnected podium for efficient flow from the ER to the imaging/operating rooms and services, and that requires St Paul's to have the biggest lot possible. Taller towers are about as useful as kosher bacon in that regard.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Vin

I would pick the Molson brewery site for three or four 30+ storey hospital buildings that contain wards and offices, complete with a couple of helipads on top. All the towers would be linked by a 8-storey podium building. Between the towers would be sky bridges at various floors criss-crossing the complex.

There, that's my vision of a nice new hospital to replace St Paul's: nice solid ground right next to downtown, and easy flight access since it is relatively close to the waters.

I would also agree that the current site is a bit inferior to the Concord Molson site in a lot of ways (Concord Molson is technically not under any viewcones, the opportunity for upzoning South False Creek and turning it into a lively city disctrict and building that streetcar are much greater if there's such an anchor), but it'd also likely result in another 5-year delay from rezoning the industrial land and redesigning the current plans. Also, DTES, but . We should be getting rid of DTES eventually, ideally, making the location less important. (Possibly hoping too hard.)

Concord Molson is 69% the land area of the current planned site. Note that about a 3rd the site isn't supposed to become raw hospital, but medical offices and hotels. Those CAN be placed on top everything else- thus, the existing hospital should be able to have similarly sized floorplates to the currently proposed ones.

Concord might be willing to take a land swap though. Whether Vancouver would actually allow a 30-story tower and residential rezoning on Molson is a bit questionable, after all. With the current St. Pauls' site, Concord could go to 12 towers x 20 stories without worrying about making any industrial land exclusion, and considering Vancouver's dislike of heights, would likely ultimately make MORE money than they would off Molson. If they get the Eastern Viaduct Parcels (seems logical to occur), Concord can market all of that land as part of their "Concord Pacific Place" Community and directly connotate it as an 'extension' of Yaletown. It's a win-win, in theory.

[WarrenC12]

Lol it's not happening at the Molson site. Full stop.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I would also agree that the current site is a bit inferior to the Concord Molson site in a lot of ways (Concord Molson is technically not under any viewcones, the opportunity for upzoning South False Creek and turning it into a lively city disctrict and building that streetcar are much greater if there's such an anchor), but it'd also likely result in another 5-year delay from rezoning the industrial land and redesigning the current plans. Also, DTES, but . We should be getting rid of DTES eventually, ideally, making the location less important. (Possibly hoping too hard.

DTES or not, VGH to the east makes a Molson option redundant... unless we're expecting a lot more patients from Point Grey and Kerrisdale?

[LeftCoaster]

Well there are a lot of old people...

But I'm pretty sure that's what VGH is for.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't forget the hospital needs to be fat more than it needs to be wide; as Feathered noted, they require one big interconnected podium for efficient flow from the ER to the imaging/operating rooms and services, and that requires St Paul's to have the biggest lot possible. Taller towers are about as useful as kosher bacon in that regard.

Hence I said there needs to be a podium building connecting all the towers: the Molson site has plenty of room for that. The wards, offices and research facilities DO NOT need to be on fat buildings: these can all be housed in the towers above.

That's a tall modern hospital in Hong Kong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_K...l_Overview.JPG

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

DTES or not, VGH to the east makes a Molson option redundant... unless we're expecting a lot more patients from Point Grey and Kerrisdale?

Does that mean the proposed St Paul's at Falsecreek flats is also redundant? Do you know that both the Molson and Flasecreek flats sites are roughly the same distance to VGH, at around 2km? We are definitely expecting 20,000 new residents to be beside the Molson site in the near future: at the Squamish nations development.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Hence I said there needs to be a podium building connecting all the towers: the Molson site has plenty of room for that. The wards, offices and research facilities DO NOT need to be on fat buildings: these can all be housed in the towers above.

That's a tall modern hospital in Hong Kong:

Cool. Hong Kong's other, non-privatized hospitals seem to prefer a False Creek Flats type layout; seems that if they have the space, they'd prefer patients and researchers to not mix.

Originally Posted by Vin

Does that mean the proposed St Paul's at Falsecreek flats is also redundant? Do you know that both the Molson and Flasecreek flats sites are roughly the same distance to VGH, at around 2km? We are definitely expecting 20,000 new residents to be beside the Molson site in the near future: at the Squamish nations development.

It's called the Downtown East Side for a reason. VGH already covers the west half of Vancouver well, especially with the SkyTrain and bus service; what we need is a facility for East Van, the DTES included.

All we know for Senakw is that there's 6k units. The 20k figure comes from cairnstone, who is apparently assuming 1-2 kids for every household. NEFC alone will have 12k units, to say nothing of future Commercial, Hastings or the Flats.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Cool. Hong Kong's other, non-privatized hospitals seem to prefer a False Creek Flats type layout; seems that if they have the space, they'd prefer patients and researchers to not mix.



It's called the Downtown East Side for a reason. VGH already covers the west half of Vancouver well, especially with the SkyTrain and bus service; what we need is a facility for East Van, the DTES included.

All we know for Senakw is that there's 6k units. The 20k figure comes from cairnstone, who is apparently assuming 1-2 kids for every household. NEFC alone will have 12k units, to say nothing of future Commercial, Hastings or the Flats.

In the flats is a way better location better for long term development. Current geotech engineering has removed any issues of earthquakes and I dont see flooding happening anytime soon. Also access will be better for people where as molson site would be mainly off Burrard St.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by cairnstone

In the flats is a way better location better for long term development. Current geotech engineering has removed any issues of earthquakes and I dont see flooding happening anytime soon. Also access will be better for people where as molson site would be mainly off Burrard St.

I don't think access to the Falsecreek site would be any better considering how packed Main is, and would be made worse when the viaducts are torn down, and Prior street made into a "calming" 2-lane country lane.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Good thing there's National and Terminal and Pacific then.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

DTES or not, VGH to the east makes a Molson option redundant... unless we're expecting a lot more patients from Point Grey and Kerrisdale?

It would prevent any need for a new West End facility.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by cairnstone

In the flats is a way better location better for long term development. Current geotech engineering has removed any issues of earthquakes and I dont see flooding happening anytime soon. Also access will be better for people where as molson site would be mainly off Burrard St.

Really? News to the City of Vancouver as it's currently slated to be underwater in their climate change graphic:

https://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver...evel-rise.aspx

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Really? News to the City of Vancouver as it's currently slated to be underwater in their climate change graphic:

https://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver...evel-rise.aspx

So we have 81+ years to raise a short section of seawall by 1m to prevent flooding under the most extreme conditions?

Insurmountable!