Should we be renaming places and things in Ottawa-Gatineau?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Also, the first major residential school in what is now Canada was the Mohawk Institute, founded in 1831. When Macdonald was 16.

There's a big difference between the existence of residential schools and the policy of systemically and forcibly removing children from their families against their will for the purpose of assimilating them and killing their culture. Plus it wasn't just the residential schools, SJAM also was responsible for other policies such as the banning of traditional ceremonies like the potlatch. At any rate, it is not up to you to determine what/who is or isn't offensive to the indigenous people.

The decision to rename the parkway was clearly done unilaterally without consultation by the Harper Government. To me personally, changing it washes away some of my distaste for his legacy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

My comment was simply to say that residential schools weren’t created from an indigenous point of view, but from a belief that European culture was superior. It was also a time when women had no voice in government, and non-white people were considered lesser beings. These terrible policies were formulated by a white male-dominated colonial society that had little regard for what they considered savages. To excuse this as acceptable during their time is seeing it only from one perspective.

I accept John A. Macdonald as our first Prime Minister, I don’t believe that his old statues should be removed. But to continually glorify him well past his time is ridiculous. “But he did great things” might be good enough to plaster over the fact he drank too much, but does not excuse the pain and suffering that the residential schools have brought

Of course. I can definitely see all of that.

I just react to insinuations that feelings of ethno-racial superiority and ensuing atrocities were and are the exclusive domain of European-descended men. Or that "sure, other groups did it - but white males were always worse".

I honestly have no idea who was "worse", if it's even possible to have a scoresheet for something like that.

What I do know is that every human group was and is prone to this type of behaviour, including Indigenous peoples of the Americas, under a "perfect storm" scenario of course.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course. I can definitely see all of that.

I just react to insinuations that feelings of ethno-racial superiority and ensuing atrocities were and are the exclusive domain of European-descended men. Or that "sure, other groups did it - but white males were always worse".

I honestly have no idea who was "worse", if it's even possible to have a scoresheet for something like that.

What I do know is that every human group was and is prone to this type of behaviour, including Indigenous peoples of the Americas, under a "perfect storm" scenario of course.

I think you have blown my original comment way out of context, which was that of SJAM's Canada circa late 1800s. If you were a white male at that time, the "norms" surrounding his policies were perfectly fine. if you were indigenous, or Chinese brought to build his railway (aka "The Canadian Dream"), not so much. If you were a woman, you had no say.

Having said that, I do think the average Euro-descendant person today is oblivious to how much their predecessors have defined the world, and how colonialism has left deeply ingrained racial insecurities throughout the world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think you have blown my original comment way out of context, which was that of SJAM's Canada circa late 1800s. If you were a white male at that time, the "norms" surrounding his policies were perfectly fine. if you were indigenous, or Chinese brought to build his railway (aka "The Canadian Dream"), not so much. If you were a woman, you had no say.
.

Sure, during Macdonald's time, in Canada, white males (really, it was those of British origin) had the power.

In other parts of the world at that same time, the in-group of those Chinese labourers would have been on top of the heap. And acted much the same way. Or worse.

[JayBuoy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course. I can definitely see all of that.

I just react to insinuations that feelings of ethno-racial superiority and ensuing atrocities were and are the exclusive domain of European-descended men. Or that "sure, other groups did it - but white males were always worse".

I honestly have no idea who was "worse", if it's even possible to have a scoresheet for something like that.

What I do know is that every human group was and is prone to this type of behaviour, including Indigenous peoples of the Americas, under a "perfect storm" scenario of course.

Every human society in history has engaged in conflict and warfare at some point. But we live in Canada, and have the ability to rectify the sins of our forebears'.

Now renaming a parkway or taking down a statue will not do that - but I think it would be cool to honour all the founding people by having more indigenous place-names and monuments.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Having said that, I do think the average Euro-descendant person today is oblivious to how much their predecessors have defined the world, and how colonialism has left deeply ingrained racial insecurities throughout the world.

As someone whose ancestors left Europe four centuries ago, eked out an existence in a new land, suffered colonial domination, deportation and even attempted ethnic cleansing themselves, and personally had no involvement (personally or even collectively) in the most impactful of the former mother country's global imperial activities that rolled out in the centuries following, the idea that my predecessors were somehow influential "shapers" of the contemporary world doesn't resonate much with me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JayBuoy

Every human society in history has engaged in conflict and warfare at some point. But we live in Canada, and have the ability to rectify the sins of our forebears'.

Now renaming a parkway or taking down a statue will not do that - but I think it would be cool to honour all the founding people by having more indigenous place-names and monuments.

No fundamental disagreement from me on this.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In other parts of the world at that same time, the in-group of those Chinese labourers would have been on top of the heap. And acted much the same way. Or worse.

This has no bearing on the discussion. We're discussing issues in Canada at the time and whatabouting to other regions to distract doesn't change the situation on the ground in Canada at the time.

[thewave46]

Most people call it the Ottawa River Parkway already, don't they?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This has no bearing on the discussion. We're discussing issues in Canada at the time and whatabouting to other regions to distract doesn't change the situation on the ground in Canada at the time.

Fine. Trust me, I have no illusions about who had all of the power in the context of late 20th century Canada.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Fine. Trust me, I have no illusions about who had all of the power in the context of late 20th century Canada.

Spoiler: it was white men, as it still is today and as it was when Indigenous children were shuffled off to schools never to be seen again.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As someone whose ancestors left Europe four centuries ago, eked out an existence in a new land, suffered colonial domination, deportation and even attempted ethnic cleansing themselves, and personally had no involvement (personally or even collectively) in the most impactful of the former mother country's global imperial activities that rolled out in the centuries following, the idea that my predecessors were somehow influential "shapers" of the contemporary world doesn't resonate much with me.

Of course it doesn't resonate with you because you don't have to live with it on a daily basis. For non-white Canadians, the inevitable question they always have to address when they meet someone is "where are you from originally?" as if they have to explain their family history and reassert their "canadianess".

also
Travelling in Europe—
Euro: Where are you from?
— "Canada."
Euro: You don't look Canadian.
— "Oh, what's a Canadian supposed to look like?"

Crossing the US Border:
<hands Canadian passport>
Border Guard: What's your citizensihip?
— "Canadian." <thinking, how the F#@K else would I have this passport>
Border Guard: Where were you born?
<clenches teeth and surrenders the answer sheepishly>

This shit becomes normal to you, it becomes part of how you see yourself, to the point that you don't know who you are without it. It never goes away.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There's a big difference between the existence of residential schools and the policy of systemically and forcibly removing children from their families against their will for the purpose of assimilating them and killing their culture. Plus it wasn't just the residential schools, SJAM also was responsible for other policies such as the banning of traditional ceremonies like the potlatch. At any rate, it is not up to you to determine what/who is or isn't offensive to the indigenous people.

The decision to rename the parkway was clearly done unilaterally without consultation by the Harper Government. To me personally, changing it washes away some of my distaste for his legacy.

The potlatch ban was in place until 1951, it was supported by 10 PMs after Macdonald.

Of course it is not my business what offends people. But it is my business whether someone’s offence is translated into a major change in public policy. Many Quebec nationalists are offended by Papa Trudeau. Do we have to rename the Montreal Airport because they are offended (another recent political name change done without consultation, BTW).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The potlatch ban was in place until 1951, it was supported by 10 PMs after Macdonald.

Of course it is not my business what offends people. But it is my business whether someone’s offence is translated into a major change in public policy. Many Quebec nationalists are offended by Papa Trudeau. Do we have to rename the Montreal Airport because they are offended (another recent political name change done without consultation, BTW).

More recent name changes are fair game for reconsideration, I think. Low-hanging fruit too.

Especially if the locals haven't really adopted the change. Montrealers still refer to it as Dorval Airport. The Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway is still the Ottawa River Parkway to the locals.

It's the long-term stuff that's touchier.

[DarthVader_1961]

I think we should rename stuff and make use of well known First Nations people as new names.

Keep the statues and make sure the full history of these people is taught in schools.

[passwordisnt123]

I vote yes, rename it. It was a stupid and crass partisan decision by the previous Harper Conservative government to rename it in the first place.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As someone whose ancestors left Europe four centuries ago, eked out an existence in a new land, suffered colonial domination, deportation and even attempted ethnic cleansing themselves, and personally had no involvement (personally or even collectively) in the most impactful of the former mother country's global imperial activities that rolled out in the centuries following, the idea that my predecessors were somehow influential "shapers" of the contemporary world doesn't resonate much with me.

Yes. It’s only in Quebec that non-racists can still say things like this.

Actually I reject any sins of our fathers arguments. Residential schools were almost universal policy. Mostly people thought they were helping kids by teaching them about god and civilisation. It’s not the case that areas with less residential schools like Nunavut are thriving so the problems are certainly deeper. We are a country of immigrants now not two founding peoples and we need to move forward together.

I also think we should focus on rectifying the poverty rather than changing names of highways. But that of course will take real money, that frankly we aren’t willing to spend and if we look internationally at aid efforts may not help anyway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Of course it doesn't resonate with you because you don't have to live with it on a daily basis. For non-white Canadians, the inevitable question they always have to address when they meet someone is "where are you from originally?" as if they have to explain their family history and reassert their "canadianess".

also
Travelling in Europe—
Euro: Where are you from?
— "Canada."
Euro: You don't look Canadian.
— "Oh, what's a Canadian supposed to look like?"

Crossing the US Border:
<hands Canadian passport>
Border Guard: What's your citizensihip?
— "Canadian." <thinking, how the F#@K else would I have this passport>
Border Guard: Where were you born?
<clenches teeth and surrenders the answer sheepishly>

This shit becomes normal to you, it becomes part of how you see yourself, to the point that you don't know who you are without it. It never goes away.

I don't think this stuff is nearly as mean-spirited or exclusionary as it's often made out to be.

It's very common for people to make assumptions based on actual or assumed demographics.

I mean, if you think of someone from Detroit, what would they look like?

If you randomly think of someone from Sweden, what would they look like in your mind?

[Marshsparrow]

I never stopped calling it the Ottawa River Parkway.
Put the statues in a museum or outside the legislature where they worked - otherwise we don't need them.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think this stuff is nearly as mean-spirited or exclusionary as it's often made out to be.

It's very common for people to make assumptions based on actual or assumed demographics.

I mean, if you think of someone from Detroit, what would they look like?

If you randomly think of someone from Sweden, what would they look like in your mind?

It might not be necessarily mean-spirited but you don’t realize what that does to the other person’s sense of identity. A first generation white Swedish immigrant, if they lose their accent will probably get their Canadian identity rarely questioned in casual conversation. A 4th or 5th generation Japanese Canadian however will have to explain sooner or later. On the #11 bus when Inuit come aboard speaking Inuktitut, some people were treat them like foreigners. Sometimes they even get innocently “ni-hao”ed. Totally cringe-worthy thinking this is their capital.

When a non-white person recounts these situations, they are not blaming you personally for it, they’re saying how they experience things so you might see their point of view. If I tell you about the pain I’m suffering from an injury, I’m not blaming you for the injury, I just need your understanding, and if there is something we can do about the cause of the injury you might be able to help out too. I think this is how reconciliation starts.