the Privatized Police thread

[Buckeye Native 001]

I hope to christ you're wrong, but I wouldn't put it past local/municipal leaders to try and ram through police privatization as a way to "reform" the criminal justice system. We already have a glut of private prisons in Arizona and our governor was elected and re-elected by saying he'd run the state government as a business (he was formerly the CEO of Cold Stone Creamery). Of course, that's failed spectacularly recently in his inability to properly address the pandemic and hindered his ability to keep his constituents relatively safe.

Are there inefficiencies in the government? Absolutely. Hell, I make way too much money for what I'm paid to do and have an absurdly generous pension that's not sustainable, but the service we provide in trying to keep people out of prison (and in turn, lowering the cost of incarceration funded by taxpayers) is a hell of a lot more efficient in the long run (and not thinking about long-term outcomes/prospects is part of the problem), partly because there's no profit motive. Then again, a lot of our services and salaries are funded by the court fines and fees that we charge our clients, when they can't make payments as directed/ordered (hey, did you all know we're in a recession?), those funds quickly dry up.

[Centropolis]

i feel i have to repeat myself here.

capital gets what it wants in america. why do you think the left is so obsessed with social policing? because it has been completely shaved, sterilized, and destroyed when it comes to its demands regarding actual material conditions so it’s frantically doubled down in these other areas where american capital will allow and in fact can infiltrate (the coca-cola stone mountain humanitarian interpretive center).

so we defund police. the police aren’t actually going anywhere...like the military industrial complex and all of its freaky ass subsidiaries policing is going private, out of the reach of citizen oversite.

[edale]

Is this activity legal though? What police powers do these private guards actually have? They aren't agents of the state, so what enables them to write tickets or make arrests or whatever?

[Buckeye Native 001]

It's a little bit more complex than how I'm laying it out, but if they're deputized by local law enforcement, there's a lot they can do. It also depends on the local municipalities' (city/county/state) laws/statutes regarding law enforcement and what they're capable of performing under deputization (which might not even be a word?). I don't think it's been on peoples' minds much until recently, and I'm concerned there's some whackos out there itching to see what they can get away with if they deputize private law enforcement.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by edale

Is this activity legal though? What police powers do these private guards actually have? They aren't agents of the state, so what enables them to write tickets or make arrests or whatever?

i mean, does it matter at this point? it’s a thing thats happening. legal obstacles can always be smoothed over if theres enough horsepower behind the push...

[edale]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i mean, does it matter at this point? it’s a thing thats happening. legal obstacles can always be smoothed over if theres enough horsepower behind the push...

Of course it matters. There have always been private security guards, so their existence alone isn't troubling. Under what authority are they issuing tickets and arresting people? If they issue a speeding ticket, is it recognized as legitimate by the St. Louis courts? If they arrest people and bring them to the justice center, will they be booked?


As far as St. Louis acting as a sign of what's to come for the rest of the US, I don't know about that. I mean, yes, Ferguson pre-dated the protests and riots that took place across the country this year. But before Ferguson, there were plenty of other places across the country that experienced protests and rioting in response to police violence. I don't see how St. Louis is unique in that regard. Also, I think St. Louis has racial tensions that are far worse than most places in the US. I've liked my visits to STL, but there are some pretty obvious signs that the city/metro is fractured worse than most. The whole north side is just crumbling while the south side of the city is fairly healthy and stable. It's truly the tale of two cities, which does exist in most cities, but not to the stark level of St. Louis. Looking at an aerial of the city, it's pretty crazy to see the differences between the north and south sides. And the geographic divide mirrors the racial one. Also, the city being its own county, and the toxic relationship that exists between the city and the suburbs is something STL takes to a new level.

I'm just not sold on the basic idea of St. Louis being a sign of what's to come nationally. If anything, it seems like a metro that's behind the times rather than ahead of them.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I hope to christ you're wrong, but I wouldn't put it past local/municipal leaders to try and ram through police privatization as a way to "reform" the criminal justice system. We already have a glut of private prisons in Arizona and our governor was elected and re-elected by saying he'd run the state government as a business (he was formerly the CEO of Cold Stone Creamery). Of course, that's failed spectacularly recently in his inability to properly address the pandemic and hindered his ability to keep his constituents relatively safe.

Are there inefficiencies in the government? Absolutely. Hell, I make way too much money for what I'm paid to do and have an absurdly generous pension that's not sustainable, but the service we provide in trying to keep people out of prison (and in turn, lowering the cost of incarceration funded by taxpayers) is a hell of a lot more efficient in the long run (and not thinking about long-term outcomes/prospects is part of the problem), partly because there's no profit motive. Then again, a lot of our services and salaries are funded by the court fines and fees that we charge our clients, when they can't make payments as directed/ordered (hey, did you all know we're in a recession?), those funds quickly dry up.

The way we kicked the can down the road for our pension system is a big part of the issue that touches more than just cops and the law enforcement system. Our country has aged and how do we keep our previous promises and run our cities today?

[Buckeye Native 001]

We can't. I'm fully expecting to never receive a dime of that pension, nor should I.

But I don't think that what's happening in St. Louis wouldn't or couldn't happen elsewhere. I wouldn't put it past some cities/states across the South and Mountain West to dabble in these kinds of experiments. There's kooks and goofballs everywhere, but they have an uncomfortable amount of legitimacy/pull in predominantly conservative states.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

We can't. I'm fully expecting to never receive a dime of that pension, nor should I.

But I don't think that what's happening in St. Louis wouldn't or couldn't happen elsewhere. I wouldn't put it past some cities/states across the South and Mountain West to dabble in these kinds of experiments. There's kooks and goofballs everywhere, but they have an uncomfortable amount of legitimacy/pull in predominantly conservative states.

its happening under democratic control.

i’m hearing all of the same stuff that i did during/after ferguson about it happening 100% in a vacuum. i mean could you imagine something like that happening in a progressive city like (say) minneapolis? i heard stuff like that.

[Centropolis]

“If we demand that police enter dangerous situations but tell them if something goes wrong its all on them, not on the society they serve, then police are in an impossible position. Privatizing the police force would solve this problem. And for many progressives it also has the advantage of being the inevitable outcome of their goal to abolish police. Communities could simply hire private police who are subject to the same laws as anyone else.“

https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/18...ze-the-police/

[Centropolis]

*holy shit the building is on fire and some of the others may be too*

*no sorry its just a really shitty building*

narrator: the entire neighborhood burned down.

[dc_denizen]

I wish we had some private police to clear out the rioters in downtown Portland.

Since it seems the public police won’t do their jobs eh

Time to give the private sector a chance

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

I wish we had some private police to clear out the rioters in downtown Portland.

Since it seems the public police won’t do their jobs eh

Time to give the private sector a chance

the zeits are geisting. it’s coming.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Law enforcement and the criminal justice system as a whole are two areas that should never, ever be run by private entities on a large scale. I recognize and acknowledge my own bias here (I really don't deserve and shouldn't still be employed where I am right now), and that we've needed reforms and restructuring for a long time, but this ain't something that can be fixed by privatizing it and hoping for the best. You want change and implement/develop metrics to show improvement and best practices? Focus on long-term goals, not quick fixes and a short-term obsession with quarterly profits.

And of course The Federalist would argue for it. I'm not familiar enough with the municipalities in and around St. Louis. Isn't Ferguson it's own city, or is just a St. Louis neighborhood?

Also, I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak to the legalities of any of this, nor should I try to. If there are any lawyers here who specialize in criminal law and/or public policy, please chime in?

[dc_denizen]

what is weirder and more unsettling to the nation

(1) riots, looting, destructive activity in cities across the country, completely unimpeded by police; bail reform leading to violent rioters released immediately; attacks on bystanders at said riots, usually leading to no arrests; attacks on government buildings and public officials;

or

(2) some municipalities considering private police as a result of (1)

[Buckeye Native 001]

That's awfully simplistic, short-term thinking. Most people with working knowledge of public administration know that just throwing money at a problem (in this case, a government contract for a private police force) doesn't make it go away, it just creates new problems and hazards.

CHOP/CHAZ was a failed experiment and recognized as such right off the bat by pretty much anyone with a functioning brain. Most of the protests have died down in the past few weeks outside of possibly a few hotspots.

And honestly, does anyone here realistically expect a private company to train and foster a semi-competent police force without offering the same benefits and protections that come with being a public employee? Not if making money off of government contracts is the sole motivator.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by edale

Of course it matters. There have always been private security guards, so their existence alone isn't troubling. Under what authority are they issuing tickets and arresting people? If they issue a speeding ticket, is it recognized as legitimate by the St. Louis courts? If they arrest people and bring them to the justice center, will they be booked?


As far as St. Louis acting as a sign of what's to come for the rest of the US, I don't know about that. I mean, yes, Ferguson pre-dated the protests and riots that took place across the country this year. But before Ferguson, there were plenty of other places across the country that experienced protests and rioting in response to police violence. I don't see how St. Louis is unique in that regard. Also, I think St. Louis has racial tensions that are far worse than most places in the US. I've liked my visits to STL, but there are some pretty obvious signs that the city/metro is fractured worse than most. The whole north side is just crumbling while the south side of the city is fairly healthy and stable. It's truly the tale of two cities, which does exist in most cities, but not to the stark level of St. Louis. Looking at an aerial of the city, it's pretty crazy to see the differences between the north and south sides. And the geographic divide mirrors the racial one. Also, the city being its own county, and the toxic relationship that exists between the city and the suburbs is something STL takes to a new level.

I'm just not sold on the basic idea of St. Louis being a sign of what's to come nationally. If anything, it seems like a metro that's behind the times rather than ahead of them.

Unfortunately I feel this way too as there are a handful of metros that have been hollowed out due to decades of industry moving and racial strife.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

*holy shit the building is on fire and some of the others may be too*

*no sorry its just a really shitty building*

narrator: the entire neighborhood burned down.

Some of the neighborhoods have been burning for decades.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

what is weirder and more unsettling to the nation

(1) riots, looting, destructive activity in cities across the country, completely unimpeded by police; bail reform leading to violent rioters released immediately; attacks on bystanders at said riots, usually leading to no arrests; attacks on government buildings and public officials;

or

(2) some municipalities considering private police as a result of (1)

#2 is logically inconsistent. The job of municipalities is to provide public services, one of which is policing. Privatizing the police force means the municipality is failing.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

#2 is logically inconsistent. The job of municipalities is to provide public services, one of which is policing. Privatizing the police force means the municipality is failing.

I think that's the underlying point. Just another wedge in the ongoing attempt to de-legitimize government entities and functions.

Capitalism in it's purest form: Completely unchecked and unregulated. There's a balance between capitalism and, relatively speaking, socialism. In this case, it's the role of municipal services and the amount of taxes we're willing to pay to support them, but the pendulum is swinging too far in one direction and way too many people are comfortable going along with it.

But again, I'm a government employee so I've got some obvious/unfair/selfish biases.