CHICAGO | The 78 Site

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

The White Sox have hit 2 million ONCE in the past decade. There are only going to be 2 expansion opportunities, in order to bring MLB to 32 total teams. That means that a few cities will be left out.

If we look at the four cities below, none of them are over-saturated with pro sports teams. They each have fewer than 3 of the 4 majors (NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL).

As far as fan interest, the White Sox averaged 20,500 fans in 2023. Here is average 2023 attendance for MLS teams in the possible cities.

Nashville - 28,250
Charlotte - 35,500
Salt Lake - 19,500
Portland - 23,000
Montreal - 16,000
Austin - 20,750

While there are no hard and fast rules for the pro-sports market saturation, I'd argue very generally that metros under 3 million having three, or all four, of the pro-sports leagues is really pushing residents' allocated sports entertainment dollars to their limits.

Nashville (Preds and Titans) and Charlotte (Panthers and Bobcats) are home to two pro franchises already. Granted, both metros project to have continued strong population growth in the next few decades.

I think Austin, the largest metro without a pro team, is due a team of some sort. MLB will not really encroach on the UofT programs like a pro-NFL team would, and it has gained a strong corporate tech presence that should bolster sponsorship advertising, etc.

OrdoSeclorum
Exactly. Anyone who says "The city should spend exactly $0.00..." Simply isn't a serious person.

I am absolutely in agreement. No sports team should get a dollar for these stadiums. We should already have laws prohibiting as much.

That said, I am also a realist, and I know that nearly all MLB teams have received either infrastructure subsidies at the minimum (SF Giants) or, in many more cases in MLB, upwards of half or more of the stadium cost. I hope this ends up with more of a Giants model where most of the stadium itself was privately funded, given that is probably the best-case scenario while making the 78 ballparks happen and retaining the Sox. I have no issue with letting the Sox walk, though, if the residents and politicians finally decide enough is enough. In fact, nothing would make me prouder.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

The White Sox have hit 2 million ONCE in the past decade. There are only going to be 2 expansion opportunities, in order to bring MLB to 32 total teams. That means that a few cities will be left out.

If we look at the four cities below, none of them are over-saturated with pro sports teams. They each have fewer than 3 of the 4 majors (NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL).

As far as fan interest, the White Sox averaged 20,500 fans in 2023. Here is average 2023 attendance for MLS teams in the possible cities.

Nashville - 28,250
Charlotte - 35,500
Salt Lake - 19,500
Portland - 23,000
Montreal - 16,000
Austin - 20,750

On top of all that, I can totally see striver cities like Nashville or Charlotte bending over backwards and giving away the keys to city hall to anyone who'd bring MLB to town.

They are in the hardcore "PR & branding" phase of their cities' development.

And I would very much like the Sox to stick around, but I just have a feeling that, this time, we'll all be very uncomfortably trying to come to terms with the "Nashville White Sox" towards the end of this decade.

[JMBasquiat]

I think cities like Nashville and Charlotte will look at how bad St. Louis got burned by the Rams and not bend over as backwards as they may have done in the past.

They might offer infrastructure improvement and maybe even tax deferrals but I'd hesitate to say that they'd offer Jerry 2 billion for a franchise that's been, frankly, lackluster for much of its existence.

[southoftheloop]

I understand it is all just a business, but I'd be very surprised if the Sox left....they are one of the AL's original franchises, have been in Chicago for well over a century, and are valued at $2 billion....a new stadium and a good team again and Chicago has way more to offer than some sunbelt city b

[iguy]

I just hate the position this seems to create: on the one hand, Reinsdorf is absolutely trying to intimidate the State/City into bankrolling another stadium. Granted, consequent development that would play out in the 78 and surrounding area is obviously an attractive prospect.

On the other however, in a time where we are contending with every city in the sunbelt trying to steal as much as they can out of Chicago, the Sox leaving would almost certainly - rightly or wrongly - be a terrible look for the city that would feed into the many other perceptions - again, right or wrong - that are already out there.

[Kngkyle]

White Sox at The 78 makes imminently more sense than the Bears at the south lot. The city could actually use the situation to their advantage and go with whoever offers the city the best terms. The city isn't without a lot of leverage here... not that I'm confident in their ability to use that leverage effectively.... but this seems like a unique situation where the city gets to choose who gets the rose.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

I don't understand why Related feels the need to swing for the fences on every pitch, instead of just developing the site a bit at a time. So far as I know, General Mediterranean (the real owner of the dirt) is patient, willing to have the substantial rewards go to the next generation of family.

They've now got a road, got water, got sewerage. And the South Loop is absorbing about 500 units of new product each year, even without having a major league ballpark across the street. So why not start with a 300-unit highrise at 14th, then another the following year, then two more and some riverwalk retail? The Southbank model, in other words.

Exactly my reaction to Related's approach here as well.

It's not outlandish to think they're just not very serious about actually developing the project. They could veer from one pie-in-the-sky possibility to another for the next 25 years without a shovel in the dirt. Very unnecessary.
Are they familiar with Lakeshore East? Museum Park? In progress Southbank et al? It's hard work, and it takes time, patience and bit by bit, building by building progress. We have sucessful examples. Related does have it in 'em to do a project like this. It's just that they don't exactly come off as committed.

[BorisMolotov]

I think for Related's part, opportunities for exceptional returns have repeatedly been falling into their lap (first the DPI, then the casino, then the Bears, then the Sox, then potentially the Bears again). I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment here that they should just start developing piece by piece, but they would be stupid not to entertain these larger projects that would increase the overall profits of the project as a whole. I think while it looks like they're swinging for the fences and missing, it's probably worth it to them for the increased revenue than if they were to just start building a small office or apartment building and seeing where it goes from there.

[SamInTheLoop]

^ They are proactively chasing these quite low probability jackpots. There's always going to be something out there. Well, not always, but certainly at least every few years there's going to be some sort of whale out there (or are we using tuna now?) that they can go after and delay progress here.

The chances were always very high - and still likely are - that this is destined to be a mainly residential high-rise, or potentially high and medium-rise development. All they need to do is.....begin, one step at a time.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

And I would very much like the Sox to stick around, but I just have a feeling that, this time, we'll all be very uncomfortably trying to come to terms with the "Nashville White Sox" towards the end of this decade.

This certainly gives me some pause. Even if we do build them a new facility, Reinsdorf is gonna kick it, likely in the next decade.

After that, a whole new ownership team could still decide to move the team and then we're stuck with a brand new, empty ballpark.

[NSW2492]

I think waiting a couple more years could potentially open up another option via the Casino. If the casino does exceptionally well with no hotel tower immediately upon completion, an initial focus at the 78 with a few highrises with a mix of hotels and apartments/condos with ground level retail, bars, restaurants, and water taxi service direct to the casino might make further development more profitable. I'm far from an expert, but it's not too far to the casino, trying to capture some of the entertainment potential and moving it to a far less congested area sounds appealing to me.

I'm not suggesting a significant portion of the site be focused on this initially, perhaps the northwest corner of the site, a handful of acres. Not sure if feasible, but perhaps even carving out some minor waterways to really lean into the use of the river as well as having boutiques, bars, and restaurants lining the waterways. All of that development would provide the amenities that would make the area more appealing for residents, and hopefully provide Related with the profit/confidence to throw more money at the rest of 78 without getting a pie in the sky investment from an outside source.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by ardecila

After that, a whole new ownership team could still decide to move the team and then we're stuck with a brand new, empty ballpark.

Sure, owners can try to move a team at any time. However, with a new stadium district it would be less beneficial financially and far less likely that the other owners would approve it.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

Sure, owners can try to move a team at any time. However, with a new stadium district it would be less beneficial financially and far less likely that the other owners would approve it.

I don't see that scenario playing out. I would hope that, at the very least, any money given to the Sox over the 30-ish-year period would have severe penalty clauses if the team did get up and move to another city or even to the metro.

The city/state being on the hook for an unused ballpark is the absolute worst-case scenario. It is also part of the current scenario where I don't think the state/city should be on the hook for either the unpaid financing of the current park or Soldier Field.

[ducttape]

DPI pre-bid meeting on 3/12.

https://cdb.illinois.gov/content/dam...%20General.pdf

[Chi-Sky21]

Saw an article that said Bears and Sox were supposed to form a joint group for funding. In it it stated if it happened at the 78 the riverwalk would be extended down to the 78. That would be awesome. Still doubt any of this happens.

[Rizzo]

If I were looking to relocate a baseball team, besides looking for a windfall stadium development subsidy, I’d want a market where the fan base has a ton of disposable income, be within proximity of major hotel, office and convention node to capture additional spectators and visitors and also be accessible to wealthy corporations willing to buy up ticket packages and suites.

Chicago seems like a perfect fit to stay. How do those other smaller markets compare? What makes them more competitive? Do people in Nashville have more money to spend? Would more companies purchase suite and ticket packages? Also who pays the relocation fee?

Decision seems made. They just need a creative funding strategy

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by Rizzo

If I were looking to relocate a baseball team, besides looking for a windfall stadium development subsidy, I’d want a market where the fan base has a ton of disposable income, be within proximity of major hotel, office and convention node to capture additional spectators and visitors and also be accessible to wealthy corporations willing to buy up ticket packages and suites.

Chicago seems like a perfect fit to stay. How do those other smaller markets compare? What makes them more competitive? Do people in Nashville have more money to spend? Would more companies purchase suite and ticket packages? Also who pays the relocation fee?

They just waived the relocation fee for the A's because they couldn't get a new stadium in Oakland. The advantage of being in Nashville isn't that there is more money there, there isn't and I think you know that. The advantage is that they would be easily the 2nd most popular pro team in Nashville, rather than the 5th most popular team in Chicago. It would be far less competition for the spending dollars.

Based on your criteria, they should already be able to draw 25k in Chicago, but they haven't done that since 2010.

Originally Posted by Rizzo

Decision seems made. They just need a creative funding strategy

This seems like the most likely outcome, but if the city/state refuse to build a new stadium, moving becomes the more likely option.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

They just waived the relocation fee for the A's because they couldn't get a new stadium in Oakland. The advantage of being in Nashville isn't that there is more money there, there isn't and I think you know that. The advantage is that they would be easily the 2nd most popular pro team in Nashville, rather than the 5th most popular team in Chicago. It would be far less competition for the spending dollars.

Based on your criteria, they should already be able to draw 25k in Chicago, but they haven't done that since 2010.



This seems like the most likely outcome, but if the city/state refuse to build a new stadium, moving becomes the more likely option.

Too bad both Jerry Reinsdorf and the McCaskey family are both very poor and can't afford...wait..

[ithakas]

Does anyone know when the Wells-Wentworth Connector might open? I live just north and the whole area is a bit of a car bottleneck that makes the area pretty unpleasant to walk around in – though I'm not sure this opening would make anything better, besides cars speeding down Wells instead of speeding down Clark.

[left of center]

Well, it might not open. If there is going to be a White Sox stadium being built in the 78, much of it would need to be torn up and relocated along the banks of the river in order to make room for the stadium. Keeping it closed will prevent the masses from complaining when it would ultimately need to be closed again.