Official Fredericton, NB projects thread

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by OliverD

It's not courtrooms that are leased, it's other provincial office space.

The Centennial Building was also not going to house the new courthouse. It was going to be provincial government office space.

There are courtrooms located outside of the courthouse. I had a small claims court case that was heard in the Interactive Computer Systems building for example, after we filed it in the courthouse on Queen street.

And I guess technically the CB wasn't going to be the courthouse, The courthouse was going to be the addition built on the back.

Still, most of my points stay the same.

[Matzel_27]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Freddy certainly needs a courthouse, and the Centennial Building plans were sound for the requirements and what was done. I am also fully believing it was a "Penny wise/Pound foolish" decision that was purely political. Especially since the only other option for a courthouse in the city is to build brand new (and space in the downtown core is getting tighter and tighter).

The current situation with the courts spread out in leased spaces is unsustainable. Aside from all the leases that have to be maintained, you have the additional costs coming from duplication of services, and inefficiencies because things are not centralized.

Security for example has to be duplicated across all of the leased courtrooms, and you don't have the implicit extra forces handily available in case an incident happens.

Basic office services like faxing and photocopying, have to be duplicated across many of those courtroom locations. If they aren't duplicated, then you have extra costs from having people needing to leave one site to go to another for paperwork.

Without a central location, paperwork has to be couriered or otherwise sent from one location to another (wherever the central documentation storage is), fighting traffic and parking just to get a report or document from one to the other location. (Virtual setups do help a little, but courts run on physical evidence still so hard copies are still required for a lot of stuff).

So yeah, while we are a small city, we are a capital city and we should have a suitable courthouse that can handle the needs of the city and the region; which we do not currently have. Was the Centennial Building the best choice for the bones of this new courthouse? That is somewhat debatable but it was debatable at the time when the decision for the new courthouse was being made, long before Higgs came into power.

By the time Higgs came into power, that decision had been made, and demolition was well on the way on the project. Stopping it at that point was a foolish political move, especially since it puts us in an even worse situation than we were when we started. All the money invested in that courthouse plan is completely lost, we lose more money from cancellation penalties, and we have no plan at all for a new courthouse going forward. So when we do finally face facts and go for a new courthouse, we'll be starting from scratch, looking for space in an even more crowded downtown core, with a hotter construction market driving up prices, and probably an industry that is going to be a bit more skittish about government contracts like that; probably building in higher cancellation penalties because the trust has been bruised.

Why would the courthouse have to be located in a crowded, expensive downtown? 2NC might be a great location?!

[Freddypop]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Freddy certainly needs a courthouse, and the Centennial Building plans were sound for the requirements and what was done. I am also fully believing it was a "Penny wise/Pound foolish" decision that was purely political. Especially since the only other option for a courthouse in the city is to build brand new (and space in the downtown core is getting tighter and tighter).

The current situation with the courts spread out in leased spaces is unsustainable. Aside from all the leases that have to be maintained, you have the additional costs coming from duplication of services, and inefficiencies because things are not centralized.

Security for example has to be duplicated across all of the leased courtrooms, and you don't have the implicit extra forces handily available in case an incident happens.

Basic office services like faxing and photocopying, have to be duplicated across many of those courtroom locations. If they aren't duplicated, then you have extra costs from having people needing to leave one site to go to another for paperwork.

Without a central location, paperwork has to be couriered or otherwise sent from one location to another (wherever the central documentation storage is), fighting traffic and parking just to get a report or document from one to the other location. (Virtual setups do help a little, but courts run on physical evidence still so hard copies are still required for a lot of stuff).

So yeah, while we are a small city, we are a capital city and we should have a suitable courthouse that can handle the needs of the city and the region; which we do not currently have. Was the Centennial Building the best choice for the bones of this new courthouse? That is somewhat debatable but it was debatable at the time when the decision for the new courthouse was being made, long before Higgs came into power.

By the time Higgs came into power, that decision had been made, and demolition was well on the way on the project. Stopping it at that point was a foolish political move, especially since it puts us in an even worse situation than we were when we started. All the money invested in that courthouse plan is completely lost, we lose more money from cancellation penalties, and we have no plan at all for a new courthouse going forward. So when we do finally face facts and go for a new courthouse, we'll be starting from scratch, looking for space in an even more crowded downtown core, with a hotter construction market driving up prices, and probably an industry that is going to be a bit more skittish about government contracts like that; probably building in higher cancellation penalties because the trust has been bruised.

The NB Court of Appeal is located in Freddy as it is the Capital. This court is the highest court in the Province. It is the last avenue of appeal, except in a few cases where a further appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada is possible. As such it needs proper accommodations to carry out its work. This in addition to The Court of Queens Bench, Probate Court and the Provincial Court

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Matzel_27

Why would the courthouse have to be located in a crowded, expensive downtown? 2NC might be a great location?!

Because it makes much more sense for it to be centrally located, close to other amenities and near transit.

[Matzel_27]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Because it makes much more sense for it to be centrally located, close to other amenities and near transit.

Sure. In a perfect world. Where NB is a wealthy province that can shoot for the stars and get the best of everything.

Reality check

[Matzel_27]

Afterthought:

Maybe the Exhibition grounds/race track is a suitable location for a new courthouse?

[jonny golden]

[QUOTE=Matzel_27;9116497]Afterthought:

Maybe the Exhibition grounds/race track is a suitable location for a new courthouse?[/Q


I don't think they want it too far away from the police station. So somewhere in the downtown core as opposed to the outskirts would be the likely location.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Matzel_27

Sure. In a perfect world. Where NB is a wealthy province that can shoot for the stars and get the best of everything.

Reality check

We have go build for the future, not just for today. Keeping the courthouse facility in the downtown core is part of a more sustainable future for the city and the province. It also needs to be kept accessible for our more vulnerable population.

Building the courthouse on the NBEX grounds isn't a bad idea.

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by Matzel_27

Why would the courthouse have to be located in a crowded, expensive downtown? 2NC might be a great location?!

This would be a terrible idea. First of all, the city could put a stop to it (as they should). This thing needs to pass PAC, after all. Being located close to the legislature, existing government offices and police station is the first prerequisite for locating a courthouse. It needs to be reasonably located for the entire region; 2NC doesn't do that. It needs to be transit accessible (this place needs to be able to serve the entire community); 2NC doesn't accomplish that. It needs large amounts of parking; downtown already has that.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Franco401

This would be a terrible idea. First of all, the city could put a stop to it (as they should). This thing needs to pass PAC, after all. Being located close to the legislature, existing government offices and police station is the first prerequisite for locating a courthouse. It needs to be reasonably located for the entire region; 2NC doesn't do that. It needs to be transit accessible (this place needs to be able to serve the entire community); 2NC doesn't accomplish that. It needs large amounts of parking; downtown already has that.

I think the province can override municipal zoning, but other than that, you're absolutely right.

[Taeolas]

At the moment, the only places left downtown for a reasonably sized Court House would either be the TD Tower II lot (corner of King and Westmoreland), the corner of Regent and Brunswick, or behind City Hall (where they had plotted to place the new Playhouse). The first and second would be fine locations; the third would probably be a bit too tight IMO. Especially since it would probably necessitate a new parking garage next to it which the city probably wouldn't want facing the river.

The NBEx grounds would probably be fine; it isn't really part of the downtown core, but it is close enough for reasonable access (unlike 2NC or the top of the hill). The train station area would also be similarly suitable, but those plans are locked in now (wish they would be published).

Otherwise, a courthouse in the core would need to combine and tear down something.

Actually, now that I look/think of it, Queen and Smythe would also work well, but I assume that project is also locked in since they tore down the old building there last year. (Disappointing nothing has been done on that site since then)

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

At the moment, the only places left downtown for a reasonably sized Court House would either be the TD Tower II lot (corner of King and Westmoreland), the corner of Regent and Brunswick, or behind City Hall (where they had plotted to place the new Playhouse). The first and second would be fine locations; the third would probably be a bit too tight IMO. Especially since it would probably necessitate a new parking garage next to it which the city probably wouldn't want facing the river.

The NBEx grounds would probably be fine; it isn't really part of the downtown core, but it is close enough for reasonable access (unlike 2NC or the top of the hill). The train station area would also be similarly suitable, but those plans are locked in now (wish they would be published).

Otherwise, a courthouse in the core would need to combine and tear down something.

Actually, now that I look/think of it, Queen and Smythe would also work well, but I assume that project is also locked in since they tore down the old building there last year. (Disappointing nothing has been done on that site since then)

It would be amazing if the federal building on Queen could be repurposed as a court house but I assume that would be too expensive and/or that building is too small as is.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OliverD

It would be amazing if the federal building on Queen could be repurposed as a court house but I assume that would be too expensive and/or that building is too small as is.

New courthouses need specialized designs based on security requirements (for prisoner transport and holding, for the justices, screening for visitors etc). As such, repurposing any existing building may be exceedingly difficult.

I agree the building must be downtown (for a whole variety of reasons). Is there enough room on your riverfront in behind city hall to build a 4-5 storey lawcourts building similar in size to the new ones in Moncton or SJ?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

New courthouses need specialized designs based on security requirements (for prisoner transport and holding, for the justices, screening for visitors etc). As such, repurposing any existing building may be exceedingly difficult.

Indeed. Reading this thread just reminds me how well SJ ended up doing with the new courthouse and police station on Union. Peel Plaza was often derided as being a massive waste of money (it was mostly just too expensive) but it allowed for a new courthouse with seamless integration with the new police station via an underground tunnel. The whole block has held up fairly well over the past decade.

Fredericton's new courthouse really needs to be in the DT core for these purposes. 2NC or top of hill are complete nonstarters.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

New courthouses need specialized designs based on security requirements (for prisoner transport and holding, for the justices, screening for visitors etc). As such, repurposing any existing building may be exceedingly difficult.

I agree the building must be downtown (for a whole variety of reasons). Is there enough room on your riverfront in behind city hall to build a 4-5 storey lawcourts building similar in size to the new ones in Moncton or SJ?

There definitely is, and the city centre plan includes direction for new developments in that area. The primary issue is that any developments would take away the surface parking that is currently there.

This may be a good opportunity for the city to work with the province on that front. The city has acknowledged that another parking structure will be necessary in the future and to build one simultaneously with a new courthouse building would make a lot of sense.

[Freddypop]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Actually, now that I look/think of it, Queen and Smythe would also work well, but I assume that project is also locked in since they tore down the old building there last year. (Disappointing nothing has been done on that site since then)

Actually, I read that the proponent plans on starting construction on the Queen/Smythe property in the Spring. Plans will be coming forward over the winter to PAC and council for approval. He is concentrating right now on the Beaverbrook/Windsor apartment build

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Freddypop

Actually, I read that the proponent plans on starting construction on the Queen/Smythe property in the Spring. Plans will be coming forward over the winter to PAC and council for approval. He is concentrating right now on the Beaverbrook/Windsor apartment build

Great to hear.

[Matzel_27]

Architect John Leroux urged FCC on Monday night to slow down the redevelopment of the CB to 'preserve the historic character' of the building - especially the exterior look.

Gleaner link for those who have access to the digital article

"In his professional opinion, architecturally, it represents the most important building built in the last 100 years in NB."

Personally, I think it looks a bit like most soviet era panel construction projects I have seen while living/traveling in Europe. The changes to the facade including the balconies look like a massive improvement of curb appeal to me.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Matzel_27

Personally, I think it looks a bit like most soviet era panel construction projects I have seen while living/traveling in Europe.

That's not necessarily a bad thing?

Bruno Taut, Mart Stam, the second Bauhaus director Hannes Meyer, Ernst May and other important figures of the International Style went to the Soviet Union in 1930 to undertake huge, ambitious, idealistic urban planning projects, building entire cities from scratch. In 1936, when Stalin ordered them out of the country, many of these architects became stateless and sought refuge elsewhere; for example, Ernst May moved to Kenya

I really can't see the new facade being an improvement. It's currently a consistent and cohesive design, and they're going to carve out spaces for balconies and remove a bunch of windows from the front.



I get that not everyone likes the International Style and it's probably not a widely known or understood style, but it's a significant example of it. This is really just one more reason why the provincial government should not have cancelled this project. I love what this project is adding to downtown in terms of another hotel, restaurant, and housing units but the chance of the revised building being considered architecturally significant are near zero.

[Matzel_27]

Originally Posted by OliverD

That's not necessarily a bad thing?

In my mind it certainly is.