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Originally Posted by johnnypd
Brisavoine's stats are only including foreign-born, and not 2nd or 3rd generation people with sub-saharan African ethnicity or ancestry.
I suspect France has had African immigrants arriving over a longer period than in the UK which may be why you see far more black faces in France (and in my experience, not just confined to Paris).
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That wouldn't play a role, since sub-Saharan African immigrants have only recently arrived in Metropolitan France. For example at the 1982 census, there were only 171,884 immigrants from Africa outside of the Maghreb (i.e. immigrants from all the African countries except Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia) living in Metropolitan France (the European part of France), whereas there were already 1,168,104 Maghreban immigrants.
At the 2010 census, there were 1,641,667 Maghreban immigrants and 705,388 non-Maghreban African immigrants (of whom ca. 24,000 are Egyptians) living in Metropolitan France.
It's therefore very unlikely that the sub-Saharan African immigrants living in France have grand-children already. So the number of "3rd generation" sub-Saharan immigrants in France (an improper term, since by definition an immigrant can only be from the 1st generation) must be very few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnypd
Large scale migration from sub-Saharan Africa to the UK only really started after 1997 - before that, I'd imagine a significant proportion of the much smaller migrant numbers would be from the white colonial class, particularly those leaving S.Africa and Zimbabwe.
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Non-Maghreban African immigrants in Metropolitan France:
- 1982: 171,884
- 1990: 275,182
- 1999: 393,289 (a number greatly underestimated; INSEE acknowledged that the 1999 census greatly underestimated the African immigrants)
- 2010: 705,388
So the numbers in France picked up in the 1990s, just like in the UK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnypd
Looking up the stats, in 2009 there were 798,800 Black Africans in the UK (immigrants and their offspring) -whereas in France immigrants alone accounted for 669,401 - not strictly Sub-Saharan, but non-Magrehbi African. Outdated stats, but I actually wouldn't be surprised if the total figure of Black Africans in France was 3 times the British number.
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The 2011 UK census found that there lived in England & Wales 989,628 people with Black African ethnicity, 594,825 people with Black Caribbean ethnicity, 280,437 people with "other Black" ethnicity (??), 426,715 mixed White and Black Caribbean, and 165,974 mixed White and Black African.
On the other hand, at the 2009 French census, like I said in a previous post there were 656,716 sub-Saharan African immigrants in Metropolitan France, and 299,139 people from the French West Indies and Haiti.
In 2008, INSEE conducted a large scale survey to determine how many children of immigrants lived in Metropolitan France. It found out that 668,000 non-Maghreban African immigrants (this includes Egypt) lived in Metropolitan France, and that they had 570,000 children born on French soil. The number of grand-children born on French soil must be extremely small, because the same survey found that 88% of the non-Maghreban African immigrants arrived in France less than 30 years ago, and 97% arrived in France less than 40 years ago.
So there seem to be a ratio of 0.85 "2nd generation" non-Maghreban African immigrant per "1st generation" immigrant.
If we apply that to the 2009 census, taking only the sub-Saharan countries (i.e. leaving out the Egyptian and Libyan immigrants), then the number of 1st and 2nd generation sub-Saharan African immigrants living in France must be 1,215,000. If we add the very small number of "3rd generation" sub-Saharan African immigrants, we could reach 1,250,000 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation sub-Saharan African immigrants in Metropolitan France. Note that this figure includes people from mixed couples (like children of French White/Black African couples). According to the same survey, out of the 570,000 "2nd generation" sub-Saharan African immigrants, 35% were from mixed couples (i.e. only one parent was a sub-Saharan African immigrant).
In England & Wales, if we add up the Black African ethnicity, the "other Black" ethnicity, and the mixed White/Black African, we get 1,436,039, so in fact more than in Metropolitan France. Even if we exclude the "other Black" (but they must come from somewhere...), we would get 1,155,602 people, which is nearly the same as in Metropolitan France.
Now regarding the Black Caribbeans, we don't have data for the children and grand-children of Caribbean migrants in Metropolitan France. Given that the Caribbean migrants in Metropolitan France have arrived more than 20 years earlier than the sub-Saharan African immigrants, we can assume a higher ratio of children and grand-children. Comparing with the Maghreban immigrants, who arrived more or less at the same time as the Caribbean migrants, and for whom we have data, I'd say a ratio of 1.4 children and grand-children seems reasonable.
Considering that there were 299,139 people from the French West Indies and Haiti living in Metropolitan France in 2009, applying a 1.4 ratio means there would be approx. 420,000 children and grand-children of these people born and living in Metropolitan France (a significant part of whom are from mixed couples).
So in total that's probably about 720,000 people with Black Caribbean and mixed White/Black Caribbean ethnicities living in Metropolitan France in 2009. For comparison, in England & Wales in 2011 there were 1,021,540 people with Black Caribbean and mixed White/Black Caribbean ethnicities, which is significantly more than in Metropolitan France.
So overall, and despite the clichés, it seems there are more Black people in the UK than in Metropolitan France. That's of course Metropolitan France. If we include the entire France, then of course France has more Black people than the UK, because there lives approximately 1,200,000 Black and mixed Black people in Overseas France.