China High Speed Rail

[electricron]

When looking at graphs, always look at the gradients. At first glance, that looks like a significant drop in fares to almost nothing. But, it's only around a 25% decrease - from around 400 to around 300 (whatever domination is used in China). On a graph showing zero at the base, it'll look more like this.
Before / After
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A completely different look from
Before / After
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[schwerve]

Originally Posted by electricron

When looking at graphs, always look at the gradients. At first glance, that looks like a significant drop in fares to almost nothing. But, it's only around a 25% decrease - from around 400 to around 300 (whatever domination is used in China). On a graph showing zero at the base, it'll look more like this.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that airfares dropped to nothing, but that a ~33% decrease is significant and directly due to the increased competition of HSR, a direct benefit to those who would never use the train. Those prices are in USD.

[JDRCRASH]

The only reason why parts of China's HSR are "struggling" might be because the middle-class hasn't really grown large and wealthy enough to afford tickets.

The US still has no excuse.

[Fabb]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banya...ed-train-crash

China's high-speed train crash

Interrogating the Party
Jul 25th 2011, 15:20 by J.M. | BEIJING

The unfiltered responses to a terrible train crash leave the Communist Party scrambling

CHINA'S high-speed railway network, once a source of great pride for the Communist Party, has turned into an embarrassment. A collision between two trains on July 23rd near the coastal city of Wenzhou not only killed at least 35 people but also unleashed a torrent of online criticism of the network and the railway bureaucracy.

The prompt dismissal of three senior railway officials is unlikely to diminish public outrage at the accident, which came hard on the heels of several malfunctions in a new high-speed rail link between Beijing and Shanghai. The 1,318km (820-mile) line was launched with much fanfare at the end of June to coincide with official celebrations of the party’s 90th birthday. Even the rare sight of a Chinese official bowing in apology at a press conference about the crash appears to have done little to placate critics. Online demands abound that the railway minister, Sheng Guangzu, lose his job too. Mr Sheng was appointed only in February following allegations that his predecessor Liu Zhijun (a high-speed rail fanatic) was involved in corruption.

The internet has proved a powerful amplifier of public scepticism in China, especially since Twitter-like services began to take off a couple of years ago. In this case, it has provided real-time, uncensored insights into a disaster that the authorities would doubtless have preferred to be covered in bare-bones style by trusted party organs. ChinaGeeks, an internet-monitoring website, has translated some of the comments that have been posted online by Chinese users. As China Media Project, another website, notes, even the official press has been quoting the observations of microbloggers.

The party has been stumbling in its response. The railway ministry took hours to issue its apology. Mr Sheng, the minister, gave a terse interview (in Chinese) to state television on his way to the scene, saying nothing about human error. The sacking of three top officials of the Shanghai rail bureau, which is responsible for the area where the collision occurred, was no more than a routine party response to major accidents. It took similar action in 2008 after the last big railway disaster. Global Times, a Beijing newspaper, said in an English-language commentary that the latest accident had delivered “a strong shock to China’s social psychology” and raised doubts about the country’s railway construction plans. These call for a huge expansion of the high-speed network in the next few years.

The political shockwaves of this incident will probably reverberate longer than those of the rail disaster in 2008, even if the death toll remains lower (more than 70 died in the previous accident). China’s high-speed rail plans have been highly controversial. Some Chinese complain that the new services are effectively forcing up the price of rail travel by reducing the number of, cheaper, slower-speed trains. State-owned airlines also worry about competition (though concerns about rail safety might work in their favour). China Media Project has translated extracts from what it says are leaked directives to the official media banning discussion of the accident’s implications for the construction of high-speed rail. It is unlikely this will silence the debate.

[pesto]

The report on the train crash has been delayed by the governement for reworking so I think we all know what that means about its likely accuracy and objectivity. In the meantime, the WSJ had a cover story on HSR in China a couple of days ago.

In brief, the story says that China has no HSR technology and that it's suppliers in France, Japan, Canada, etc., seal up the technology they send so that the Chinese won't try to reverse engineer it, as they do with other technolgoy (saves on royalties, don't you know). The Chinese engineers aren't good enough either to understand the technology or to put it into an operating system that meets international standards, so they kluge it together with human beings staring at dials and sounding manual alarms.

Even better, the main supplier of parts is the former regulatory agency now privatized and owned by the former Communist administrators, who had NO experience in HSR or in management of private organizations.

[M II A II R II K]

China tests 300-mph super high-speed train


12/26/2011

Read More: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45789448.../#.TvirxVawXAh

China launched a super-rapid test train over the weekend which is capable of travelling 310-miles per hour (500 kilometers per hour), state media said on Monday, as the country moves ahead with its railway ambitions despite serious problems on its high-speed network.

- But future Chinese trains will not necessarily run at such high speeds, CSR chairman Zhao Xiaogang told the Beijing Morning News. "We aims to ensure the safety of trains operation," he said. China's railway industry has had a tough year, highlighted by a collision between two high-speed trains in July which killed at least 40 people. Construction of new high-speed trains in China has since been a near halt.

.....

[M II A II R II K]

What the country needs is a more efficient network, not faster trains


Jan 7th 2012

Read More: http://www.economist.com/node/21542420

CHINA’S love affair with fast trains is gathering steam again. Undaunted by horrendous accidents and massive cost overruns, officials are planning further expansion of the country’s high-speed rail network. A new service has begun between the southern cities of Guangzhou and Shenzhen, nearly halving the travel time to 35 minutes. With trains capable of travelling up to 380kph (236mph), the service will eventually be extended to nearby Hong Kong. For those craving even faster speeds, CSR Corp, China’s biggest trainmaker, has unveiled a supertrain (pictured above) said to be inspired by the shape of an ancient Chinese sword. It should slice through the air at 500kph.

Supertrains are sexy. Politicians love to show them off. But to allow more Chinese people to get where they want to go at a reasonable price, then three less glamorous types of investment would yield better returns. China Rail, the state near-monopoly, is deficient in all three.

The first is safety. Standards are patchy. In July a high-speed train crashed near Wenzhou, leaving 40 dead. Officials attempted a cover-up, prompting a wave of popular outrage on the Chinese internet; even the state-controlled media wailed that development had become “stained with blood”. The mood has lifted a little following the recent publication of a surprisingly harsh official report that finds fault with both the design of the railway and its management. It calls for more than 50 officials to be punished. Deeper reforms are required, however.

The second neglected area is information technology. Chaos broke out this week when a new system for online ticket sales at China Rail became overwhelmed. The demand for tickets was completely predictable, as 2.8 billion rail journeys are expected during the Chinese New Year holidays later this month. But instead of enjoying a convenient alternative to queuing all night for paper tickets, as they have done in the past, customers were frustrated by hours wasted online trying to find out if they could actually get the tickets they thought they had paid for.

The third area is pricing. Fares have historically been tightly regulated and heavily subsidised. This began at a time when China Rail had a de facto monopoly not merely of rail but of inland transport in China. In those days, tight regulation was justified. But no longer, says a new paper by the World Bank. China’s roads are much better, and railways must compete with booming airlines, too. Average incomes in China have risen tenfold since the current pricing and subsidy regime was put in place in 1982. Liberalising fares would allow services to be tailored to meet customers’ needs. In Europe, for example, rail operators offer a wide range of fares and discounts for those who book in advance, travel at odd times or bundle the fare with a packaged holiday—much as airlines have long done.

.....

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by electricron

But, it's only around a 25% decrease - from around 400 to around 300 (whatever domination is used in China).

300 Chinese Yuan =~ $47 (right now).

Google: X <currency abbreviation> in <other currency abbreviation>

[Fabb]

http://news.discovery.com/tech/china...ks-record.html

It looks japanese to me. Transfer of technology ?

[The Jerk]

call it stolen and we're even.
"you're so pretty the way you are".

[staff]

Originally Posted by Fabb

http://news.discovery.com/tech/china...ks-record.html

It looks japanese to me. Transfer of technology ?

the CRH-380A is home-grown technology. Although, the design certainly looks like it has been inspired by some Japanese trains.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by staff

the CRH-380A is home-grown technology. Although, the design certainly looks like it has been inspired by some Japanese trains.

Likely for the same reason all commercial airlines have pretty much the same basic design - aerodynamics. There's only so many ways that you can design a vehicle to reduce wind resistance.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by staff

the CRH-380A is home-grown technology. Although, the design certainly looks like it has been inspired by some Japanese trains.

As I understand it, the CRH-380A is basically a Kawasaki E2 Series that the chinese have worked on to increase its speed. The E2 series max speed in Japan is 275km/h.

There are threats of legal action because of international patents the were applied for by the Chinese company who developed the CRH-380A as they are planning on marketing this train overseas.

Technology transfer and building knowledge is one thing. Claiming a design is wholely home-grown and trying to patent it internationally... is quite another.

[M II A II R II K]

China eyes 600bln yuan rail backbone spend in 2013: executive

Read More: http://www.cnbc.com/id/49770342

China plans to spend 600 billion yuan ($96 billion) building railway infrastructure next year, with 60 percent of the investment going to high-speed projects, a senior executive from China's leading rail and highway builder said.

Li Changjin, chairman of China Railway Group Ltd, also said that it was difficult for China to complete this year's plan for railway infrastructure investment. Li made the remarks on Friday on the sidelines of China's Communist Party congress which is meeting to choose new leaders.

To support the slackening domestic economy, China has raised its planned total railway investment by 20 billion yuan to 630 billion yuan for 2012, the country's Ministry of Railways said in October. Beijing has also approved 25 rail projects that could be worth more than 700 billion yuan as part of measures to support the broader economy, currently grappling with its slackest period of growth since early 2009.

.....

[M II A II R II K]

China to open world's longest high-speed rail line

Read More: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BL05L20121222

China will open the world's longest high-speed rail line next week when a link between Beijing and the southern metropolis of Guangzhou is inaugurated, officials said on Saturday, underscoring its commitment to a trouble-plagued transport scheme.

The 2,298-km (1,428-mile) line, parts of which are already in operation, will begin full service on Wednesday, halving travel time to less than 10 hours on trains which will run at 300 kph (186 mph). The new route offers a chance for China's railways ministry, which has been dogged by scandals and missteps, to redeem itself.

.....

[M II A II R II K]

Chinese Free Market At Play, Including Potential Co-Operation


• Video Link

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

China to open world's longest high-speed rail line

Read More: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BL05L20121222

These long distance Chinese HSR routes are incredible.

Why not Chicago-NYC? It is only 700 miles or so

NYC-Philadelphia-Harrisburg- Pittsburgh - Cleveland - Toledo - Detroit (spur) -South Bend - Chicago at 186 kh/h. 5 hours?

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

China tests 300-mph super high-speed train


12/26/2011

Read More: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45789448.../#.TvirxVawXAh

Running a steel-wheel train at maglev speeds, only in China. Is this possible long-term for passenger operation? Compared to maglev, it must be much more power hungry and costly to power, no?

They link two major cities in 36 mins at 380kph. Fantastic. Think of what could be done in North America if politicians could grasp the implications of this. The Bos/Wash megalopolis/NEC could become one metropolitan area basically improving downtowns and reducing airport congestion. People could commute from Philadelphia to NYC every morning in 30 mins, shorter than the time it takes to commute to Manhattan from parts of the Bronx or Queens. Huge development would take place around Philadelphias major rail hubs as people would find more affordable housing compared to pricey NYC, yet still live in vibrant city not a boring suburb. DC residents could go to NYC for lunch and meetings and be back again to finish their day's work in the office in an hour or so. Balitimore and DC would become one city basically. People would move to live and work in high density developments close to HSR stations allowing them to commute to different cities for work and play as easily as one takes a subway today.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Running a steel-wheel train at maglev speeds, only in China. Is this possible long-term for passenger operation? Compared to maglev, it must be much more power hungry and costly to power, no?

They link two major cities in 36 mins at 380kph. Fantastic. Think of what could be done in North America if politicians could grasp the implications of this. The Bos/Wash megalopolis/NEC could become one metropolitan area basically improving downtowns and reducing airport congestion. People could commute from Philadelphia to NYC every morning in 30 mins, shorter than the time it takes to commute to Manhattan from parts of the Bronx or Queens. Huge development would take place around Philadelphias major rail hubs as people would find more affordable housing compared to pricey NYC, yet still live in vibrant city not a boring suburb. DC residents could go to NYC for lunch and meetings and be back again to finish their day's work in the office in an hour or so. Balitimore and DC would become one city basically. People would move to live and work in high density developments close to HSR stations allowing them to commute to different cities for work and play as easily as one takes a subway today.

China isn't operating any trains at 480 kph, they're operating them at 300 kph, which is only 186 mph, per that latest news "link". Amtrak's Acela was recently tested at speeds over 160 mph in NJ, but to date Amtrak operates them at a maximum of 135 mph in NJ.

Tested and operating speeds are usually different everywhere in the world, including China.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by little universe

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