Canadian Maps and Graphics - Page 38

Andy6 · #**741** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 12:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

They voted "yes" some years later ... More a Catholic vs Protestant vote than anything else, istm.

The Church in Quebec presumably saw prohibition as an incursion of dangerous Protestant ideology and “encouraged” its members to oppose it.

Acajack · #**742** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 12:43 PM**

Are conservative attitudes towards alcohol seen as Protestant traits? And not Catholic ones?

I have to admit I have trouble wrapping my head around this. Obviously you have the Irish who are predominantly Catholic and their, um, reputation.

But my family are francophone Catholics and we had (and still have to some degree) plenty of religious teetotallers in our clan. Though not sure how representative that is as my family's origins are primarily outside of Quebec in "Anglo-Canada" and so maybe that has something to do with it as well.

One of my blind spots is the history of attitudes towards alcohol in Quebec. I mean, I am aware of how things have been since the 1960s or so, and the prohibition votes also give a good idea, but it's unclear to me what role the Catholic church played in all of that when it was very powerful. Were they passive about it? Or did they fight alcohol use but just couldn't overcome the overwhelming public will?

esquire · #**743** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 12:59 PM**

In general terms I think the Catholic stance toward alcohol is one that favours moderation, but definitely not prohibition. After all, wine has a prominent role in one of the sacraments.

If there was any Catholic support for prohibition in the early 20th century, I'd take it more as a sign of the times generally, with Protestant sentiment bleeding into the broader culture rather than something coming from within Catholicism. I'd be pretty surprised to hear that Catholic higher-ups ever acted as the driving force behind prohibition in Canada.

kwoldtimer · #**744** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 1:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy6

The Church in Quebec presumably saw prohibition as an incursion of dangerous Protestant ideology and “encouraged” its members to oppose it.

Possibly, but the priests and ruling hierarchy of the Church of Rome have never been known for their teetotaling ways ....

Acajack · #**745** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 1:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

In general terms I think the Catholic stance toward alcohol is one that favours moderation, but definitely not prohibition. After all, wine has a prominent role in one of the sacraments.
.

True though when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s wine was not commonly given at communion. Perhaps only at Christmas and Easter and even then not always. Mind you these were generally francophone churches outside Quebec, and also Anglo-Catholic churches that we attended depending on where we lived.

Again, I don't know how things were in Quebec. Or even in places like Italy, Spain or Latin America. So it's unclear to me if this was a Rome-driven directive or simply an adaptation to Canadian or North American cultural values.

From what I gather wine at communion has made a modest comeback in the past decade or two, at least in francophone Catholic churches in Quebec, Ontario and Acadia.

esquire · #**746** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 1:57 PM**

^ It was always there at the altar even if it wasn't dispensed to parishioners.

Acajack · #**747** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 4:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It was always there at the altar even if it wasn't dispensed to parishioners.

Yes, I know. It's part of the priest's preparation for communion (the body and the blood ritual) and so he always has some.

Andy6 · #**748** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:04 PM**

Well, prohibition would have been more or less a progressive cause in those days. It was also one of the vehicles for the rise of female influence in public life.

Andy6 · #**749** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

In general terms I think the Catholic stance toward alcohol is one that favours moderation, but definitely not prohibition. After all, wine has a prominent role in one of the sacraments.

If there was any Catholic support for prohibition in the early 20th century, I'd take it more as a sign of the times generally, with Protestant sentiment bleeding into the broader culture rather than something coming from within Catholicism. I'd be pretty surprised to hear that Catholic higher-ups ever acted as the driving force behind prohibition in Canada.

Prohibition was mainly a Methodist cause. Temperance leaders like Carrie Nation and Billy Sunday were celebrities equivalent to any pro athlete today (Billy Sunday was a baseball player originally).

esquire · #**750** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:14 PM**

It's interesting that the French/Red River Métis Catholic presence in Manitoba didn't seem to have much of an effect in driving down the yes vote in Manitoba.

Andy6 · #**751** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting that the French/Red River Métis Catholic presence in Manitoba didn't seem to have much of an effect in driving down the yes vote in Manitoba.

Yes, it appears that other factors were at play in Quebec.

Acajack · #**752** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting that the French/Red River Métis Catholic presence in Manitoba didn't seem to have much of an effect in driving down the yes vote in Manitoba.

This is an excellent point. They would have made up a pretty substantial portion of Manitoba's population at that time.

But perhaps the Métis in particular would not have had the right to vote back in those days? Or if they did or could have, maybe they weren't interested in taking part in the democratic process.

I dunno...

kwoldtimer · #**753** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is an excellent point. They would have made up a pretty substantial portion of Manitoba's population at that time.

But perhaps the Métis in particular would not have had the right to vote back in those days? Or if they did or could have, maybe they weren't interested in taking part in the democratic process.

I dunno...

Métis have always had the right to vote. Whether, in practice, they were able to do so I couldn't say.

Airboy · #**754** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Métis have always had the right to vote. Whether, in practice, they were able to do so I couldn't say.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....enous-suffrage

Some back ground info.

Acajack · #**755** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 5:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Métis have always had the right to vote. Whether, in practice, they were able to do so I couldn't say.

Thanks.

I don't think I can see (hardly) any indigenous Canadians coming anywhere close to a voting booth before the 1960s probably.

esquire · #**756** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 6:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks.

I don't think I can see (hardly) any indigenous Canadians coming anywhere close to a voting booth before the 1960s probably.

I'm not an expert, but I'll speculate anyway...

I suspect for the Métis, in the old days they might have identified much more closely with the institutions of government given that there was a strong Canadian element to their identity. They spoke the language, knew the traditions, etc.

As compared to, say, a Cree man from northern Manitoba who probably didn't know much if any English or French, wasn't schooled in European government, and might have understandably seen the whole thing as utterly alien.

Acajack · #**757** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 6:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not an expert, but I'll speculate anyway...

I suspect for the Métis, in the old days they might have identified much more closely with the institutions of government given that there was a strong Canadian element to their identity. They spoke the language, knew the traditions, etc.

As compared to, say, a Cree man from northern Manitoba who probably didn't know much if any English or French, wasn't schooled in European government, and might have understandably seen the whole thing as utterly alien.

What would be historical relationship of the Métis regarding alcohol? Would it be similar to other indigenous peoples or would it be more similar to that of European origin Canadians (like the French)?

esquire · #**758** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 6:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

What would be historical relationship of the Métis regarding alcohol? Would it be similar to other indigenous peoples or would it be more similar to that of European origin Canadians (like the French)?

This is where I get off... I have no idea what the answer to that is.

VANRIDERFAN · #**759** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 6:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Métis have always had the right to vote. Whether, in practice, they were able to do so I couldn't say.

With hindsight, the government of the day certainly screwed up its relationship with the Metis in the 1870's. If Canada had been more honest in its dealings with the Metis would relationships be much better today?

kwoldtimer · #**760** Posted **Sep 10, 2019, 9:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

With hindsight, the government of the day certainly screwed up its relationship with the Metis in the 1870's. If Canada had been more honest in its dealings with the Metis would relationships be much better today?

Is there a problem with relations with the Metis? Didn't they win the lottery a few years ago with the SCC decision?